Confessions of a Polluted Mindset - It's about the "Youtes"
The Weekly Packers Brain Drain from Jersey Al.
By JerseyAl
Youth movement - Call it a reset, call it a rebuild, whatever you want - there's no question the Packers are looking towards filling the roster with young (and inexpensive) players to methodically get themselves out of Salary Cap Hell in a couple of years. Every draft pick last year made the roster. While it's unlikely all 13 do the same this year, I would wager that at least 10 do. With compensatory picks considered, the Packers are expected to enter the 2024 draft with 11 selections. You can also likely expect some moves made with veteran players for more cap relief (Bakhtiari, Smith, Jones?). Looking at the roster right now, there are only nine players out of 88 with more than five years of NFL experience on this team. That may be normal for the NFL (I don't know), but it seems like a small number to me.
Weapons? You Want Weapons? - Gutey heeded the call, drafting no less than four new targets during the first five rounds for Jordan Love to have at his disposal this season. Shhhh! I can hear the JSN whining going on right now, but I'm just going to ignore it. What's exciting to me is that if Jordan Love turns out to be really good (we'll see...), these players (and last year's WR picks) will all "grow up" and develop together. It's been a long time since the Packers have been in this situation and while it could go in several directions, if they flourish, it will be tons of fun to be along for the ride (yes, even without JSN).
Kickers - It seems the Packers may now have a measurables threshold for placekickers. Both kickers currently on the roster stand 6'5" and over 200 lbs.
Playing it safe-ty? - I had convinced myself that the Packers would force a pick of a safety on day two, but they resisted the temptation of reaching for a so-so safety when there were a plethora of so-so safeties in this draft. Personally, I was hoping for a Jartavius Martin pick in Round 3, but the Commanders reached, picking him at 47, just after the Packers' two second-round picks. Of course, the Packers did reach a bit for Jayden Reed with pick 45, so does it all balance out?
No MO FA - Something tells me the Packers are likely done bringing in any free agents with one possible exception. I had assumed they would look for a FA DL after the draft, as it seems there are always some run-stoppers waiting for a contract offer. However, they spent two picks on DL help, so the only move I could see them making would be to bring Adrian Amos back if the price were right. The Packers did just make moves with Savage and Love to free up some cap space this year and next. My guess is there should be enough room for an Amos deal if he is so inclined to take it instead of going elsewhere.
DBAK - David Bakhtiari had a lot of interesting things to say when he was kind enough to join the CHTV live draft show and stuck around for 25 minutes.
On how the Packers will do: "With no expectations, there's no limitations.... Definitely going to be a transition - it's not going to be easy. "
On play calling: "It's going to be more on Matt and there's isn't going to be much pushback from a 1st-year starting quarterback in Jordan.... I think there will be more emphasis on the run game."
On establishing a new team identity: "We have a young team that's hungry and people are already counting out. Great! Harness that and take it and use that. Use that as an FU mentality all year. I think that should be the first thing we do moving forward."
I especially love those last sentiments. If you haven't seen his appearance, you can watch it here:
McGinn Scout quotes - The best thing Bob McGinn does is his draft prospect series (now on golongtd.com), where he basically just gives you unfiltered quotes from Pro Scouts about players. What always fascinates me about these articles, is how divergent two scouts can be when talking about the same player. Here are a few examples:
Van Ness: “This guy is all ball. All A-plus across the board. He is raw. He will take some time. He’s got some traits like J.J. Watt had.” VS. “I don’t see a twitchy enough guy to play on the edge and be disruptive,”
Musgrave: “He’s more of a complete player than Kincaid,” VS. “I question his durability and the kid a little bit,”
Kraft: He can be the best of the group. He catches and blocks. I actually think he’s a better all-around player than (Dallas) Goedert. He’s stronger physically.” VS. “At that lower level of comp he doesn’t stand out,” a fourth scout said. “Wasn’t productive, slow, not a great blocker for that level. He’s just OK.”
Reed: “When you’re talking about Zay Flowers and Jordan Addison in the first, I’d rather take Jayden Reed in the third. He’s like the same player.” VS. "He’s a little limited but he’s a tough little guy. Slot guy. Not a lot of talent but he’ll find a way to make it.”
Wooden: “Good player. I think he can play some base end and go inside and sub rush. He’s got some 3-technique tools if he can get big enough. He’s a third-rounder. Solid inside player.” VS. “He should pay admission to the game. He just stands and watches.”
These are the professionals who get paid to evaluate players. Seeing such differing opinions on players every year should tell us that no one knows for sure and you just have to let it play out. Football players are humans, not robots. Success or failure is no sure thing. So please don't come in here with draft grades or with blanket proclamations that so-and-so was a wasted pick. It means nothing.
Freeman Redux? - Maybe Dontayvion Wicks is really Antonio Freeman's son?
CFB catch of the year so far pic.twitter.com/e6MyaoXpRM
— Will Brinson (@WillBrinson) October 1, 2021
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"Jersey Al" Bracco is the Editor-In-Chief, part owner and wearer of many hats for CheeseheadTV.com and PackersTalk.com. He is also a recovering Mason Crosby truther. Follow Al on twitter at @JerseyalGBP.
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Comments (269)
PearlyBakerBest
May 03, 2023 at 06:14 am
DBahk on play calling:
“It’s going to be more on Matt.”
Really gives some insight into the inner workings of the last four years.
Or was he saying Moron Matt?
Things that make you go hmmm.
jurp
May 03, 2023 at 06:26 am
I thought the second half of the quote was more interesting;
"there isn't going to be much pushback from a 1st-year starting quarterback in Jordan.... I think there will be more emphasis on the run game"
That's easy to read as "Rodgers didn't like MLF's playcalling and changed out of run plays a lot." This seems to mean that the people who thought that Rodgers had undue influence on the field were right.
PearlyBakerBest
May 03, 2023 at 06:34 am
Agreed. Hence the moron comment of MLF letting him do it at will?
Guam
May 03, 2023 at 07:35 am
Spot on Jurp! Bahk offered some confirmation of what has been long suspected - this was more Rodgers' offense than MLF's. Changes in the 2023 offense will be interesting to watch.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 08:19 am
Yup. His comments were very loaded.
WestCoastPackerBacker
May 03, 2023 at 02:54 pm
Of course it was Rodger's offense, as was the Buc's Brady's offense, the Broncos was Manning's offense, and the same with Big Ben, Drew Brees, etc. Veteran star QBs get that level of input into offenses. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise, or that it is somehow out of the norm.
Packers1985
May 03, 2023 at 04:23 pm
Lol exactly and in the same comment he did say" since this is 1st year of Jordan love" that meant in future when experienced even Love is expected to make changes on field like most of the top Qb's do
Guam
May 03, 2023 at 04:42 pm
While I agree with your point that veteran QBs get substantial input on the offense they run, that's wasn't the point of my comment. Perhaps you recall the introduction of LaFleur to the Packers and the front office making a point of bringing in an "offensive guru" from the Shanahan tree to upgrade the offense from the "stale" McCarthy era offense. The question long debated at CHTV was how much of the Packer offense was by mutual consent and how much was Rodgers doing what he wanted to.
Bahk's comments were the first concrete comments from anyone involved that indicated Rodgers changed running plays called by LaFleur into passing plays by Rodgers. They were clearly not in agreement about how the offense should be run. Bahk's comment indicated that Rodgers didn't just have input, he usurped LaFleur's intended plans and altered the game plan to do what he wanted. Input is one thing, intentionally overriding the coach's plans is another.
I don't think that was a ridiculous point to suggest.
Swisch
May 03, 2023 at 10:29 am
Interesting takes on Bakh's comments -- which do seem to be more evidence of undue interference by our former QB, who may have become less and less interested in and involved with the team even as he grabbed more and more power in coaching and personnel decisions.
That would've been a bad combination to undermine the integrity of the Packers as a team that excelled in the tough moments of big games. We have lost on Lambeau Field to end the season in heartbreaking fashion the past three tears. [Actually, I meant to say years, but tears kind of works, as well.]
In any case, it's so exciting to move on to a new quarterback in Green Bay for this next season who is young and promising and apparently cooperative.
As indicated by Jersey Al, it could be a lot of fun watching the Ute working with the other youtes on this offense to gel together into possibly a dynamic unit.
***
Like Aaron Jones seems to be, a veteran like Bakh could be a huge help, for a season or more (depending on his salary requirements), in this process of growing as a team, a real presence for good on and off the field -- further endearing himself to fans in his legacy to the storied history of the Packers.
I didn't listen to the Bakh interview with CHTV, but it seems essential for him to truly buy in to the excitement of a new era in Green Bay.
It would be understandable if he didn't, and in that case the Packers would do well to accommodate him by moving him to another team.
If he really wants to stay, that would be really good news.
BradHTX
May 03, 2023 at 10:38 am
“As indicated by Jersey Al, it could be a lot of fun watching the Ute working with the other youtes on this offense to gel together into possibly a dynamic unit.”
Nice, Swisch. Nothin’ but net on that one.
WestCoastPackerBacker
May 03, 2023 at 02:52 pm
Undue influence or due influence? With a massive amount of more NFL experience than LaFleur and the mind Rodgers has, it's absolutely fair for him to be heavily involved in play calling. You think Brady and Peyton Manning just followed their OC's playcalls? Nope; they were a part of the the game-planning and play-calling every step of the way at that veteran level of their careers where Rodgers is. Big Ben called a ton of his own plays. Savvy veteran QBs often call their own plays as they see how the defense is set once the OC's call comes in on the headset. Drew Brees changed plays as well.
Veteran QBs with 4 MVPs and a Super Bowl MVP can do a lot more play calling than a guy with 1 start under his belt. When Brady went to TB, they changed the entire offense to match what he was doing well in N.E.
Guys at the top of their game at the toughest position to play get to have a ton of say over how the offense is run, including a fair amount of play calling.
jannesbjornson
May 03, 2023 at 03:50 pm
No doubt the Church Ladies are out in full force. I'll hike the National Park trails and then go empty a few baskets of range balls. Something more productive. Course opens tomorrow.
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 07:35 am
I wonder if we will see an offense that resembles 2020 more than 2021/22. That also happened to be Rodgers' best year with Matt as it seemed to be more along what Matt wants to do on O.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 10:33 am
I think thats exactly what were going to see and Love will benefit immensely from it just like Rodgers did in 2020. Still dont understand why Rodgers hated Lafleur's offense so much. Doesnt he like wide open easy looks where he doesnt have to make a pinpoint throw for the play to succeed?
Swisch
May 03, 2023 at 10:57 am
It's actually sad, but it seems Rodgers has become bored and restless and dissatisfied with life in general for the past couple of years or longer, perhaps even depressed.
Maybe he didn't like the easy looks to wide open guys as being too ordinary and beneath his flashy talent.
Maybe he was disinterested in all of the details that go into an offense that creates an illusion of complexity.
In any case, I'm truly concerned about the guy.
I hope the change of scenery does him well, somehow, and that he goes on to have a truly good life.
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 01:39 pm
Swisch, I suspect it was a clear narcissist getting his nose pushed out of joint with both McCarthy, then Murphy upon release of Jordy then Cobb. Murphy saying “Don’t be a problem,” took him over the edge into complete insubordination.
LaFleur never stood a chance.
He’s got issues. Watch after their Honeymoon, and Rodgers starts getting tossed around behind a makeshift OL… where the Jets lose a bearing and the wheel wobbles…
Ooooooooooweeeeeeeeeeee!
cdoemel
May 03, 2023 at 10:55 pm
“With a massive amount of more NFL experience”. LaFleur and Rodgers came into the NFL the same year. 2008. But while Rodgers was sitting and watching, MLF was actively coaching and honing his craft. Now I’m certain AR learned a lot too while holding the clipboard, but you said massive amount more. The scourge of comment sections. Loudmouth know-it-all’s who actually don’t know anything. They just make stuff up as they go along as it suits there needs. But that would be about 90% of social media wouldn’t it? Anonymous posting really brings out the best in people! 🙄🤮
Slim11
May 06, 2023 at 10:30 am
I had the same observation. Rodgers wasn't playing within the scheme of the offense. Love needs some more experience reading defenses. Once he has that experience, his play should improve.
Handsback
May 03, 2023 at 06:27 am
Well, shouldn’t the play calling be more on the coach verses the QB?
Call me crazy, but all the things that will change this year…seeing the MLF offense and how it should run is what I’m looking forward to.
Just MHO
Ron61
May 03, 2023 at 08:24 am
Rodgers possesses enormous football knowledge so you utilize it. He has seen it all and done it all so it makes sense for the Coach to consult with Rodgers in particular situations.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 08:38 am
I work in academics and I see a lot of really smart people who can't get out of their own way.
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 09:00 am
Perfect descriptor, dobber.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 09:02 am
Very few star players in any sport make good coaches, particularly when still playing. Soccer and Rugby historically are littered with them. The perspective required is very different. There is a big difference between input and control.
I read Bakhs comments as implying that Rodgers was the strongest force shaping our O last year. It may be he wasn’t strong enough to get what he wanted and we ended up with a hybrid that pleased nobody, but it clearly wasn’t what LaFleur would have put out alone.
Now we get to see how different it would have looked if left to LaFleur and what that might have meant on the field and what it says about those who permitted that situation to develop and the appropriateness if the Rodgers/LaFleur coexistence.
BirdDogUni
May 03, 2023 at 11:10 am
"I work in academics..." I'm sorry dobber. Thankless job most days, especially, these days.
Well, I don't work in academics, and I see some really stupid people who can't make change, can't find their ass with either hand, and rarely show up for work, and when they do show up, they're late.
Thankfully, I live on 6 acres away from everyone, so I don't have to tell them to get off my lawn! ; )
Swisch
May 03, 2023 at 11:23 am
It's becoming more and more clear in our society, and more and more disconcerting, that intelligence is not necessarily wisdom for the public good.
As the historian Paul Johnson writes, the most educated country in the world in the 1930s was Nazi Germany.
Without humility, intelligence can not only become counterproductive, but quite dangerous.
***
As Jersey Al shows above regarding football, experts can have wildly divergent views.
Even well-educated and well-meaning people can disagree, but wisdom includes the modesty to listen to others so as to come to the fullest truth of things in collaboration as a community.
We can have not only incompetent scientists, not only cowardly scientists, not only corrupt scientists, but mad scientists.
It seems to me wise for the experts to even go so far as to listen to the common people of common sense and common goodness.
If we don't believe that, we don't have a democracy, or even a representative democracy. We don't have a government of the people and by the people and for the people, but rather a government of censorship dominated by elitists with self-serving experts.
***
I'm all for listening to the experts, as long as they don't put themselves above us, as long as they are truly public servants, as long as they are humble enough to admit their limitations and mistakes, as long as they are willing to work with us and not dictate to us.
In terms of football, I wouldn't run the Packers based on what the fans have to say, but I wouldn't ignore the fans, either.
As a regular at CHTV for a few years, I truly believe that we the fans have something important to add to the discussion.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 11:40 am
I work in healthcare and you wouldnt believe the incompetence and laziness from doctors. Its astounding.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 12:32 pm
I see them as college students, so--yeah--I do believe it.
Swisch
May 03, 2023 at 01:15 pm
Incompetence and arrogance can be a lethal combination.
TKWorldWide
May 03, 2023 at 03:12 pm
Good thing I’ve only got ONE of those traits.
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 03:51 pm
“I don’t feel tardy…”
Handsback
May 03, 2023 at 04:38 pm
My wife fought cancer for a year before she passed away. I can attest that your statement is true and that it applies to the back office billing group as well.
I always said you only need a level 2-3 thinker in healthcare billing, but it's rare you get a 1 level person.
God Bless you for having to work in that field.
Swisch
May 03, 2023 at 05:29 pm
God bless your wife, Handsback, and you, as well.
I ardently hope you'll be together again one day in a much better place where there is no incompetence, and every tear will be wiped away.
SwedeBayPacker
May 03, 2023 at 11:18 pm
I'm sorry for your loss :(
NickPerry
May 04, 2023 at 06:41 am
Can't give that one ENOUGH thumbs up!
PeteK
May 03, 2023 at 09:01 am
Most of the game planning is worked on in meetings and practice the week before the game. However, veterans are usually more adept to making adjustments to unexpected wrinkles. It's the ultimate team game.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 11:45 am
That’s ordinarily true, but surely the debate here is how much of that was reflected in what they actually did?
To my mind, that’s history. We will see now what LaFleur can do. That will answer many questions. We may also see what Rodgers can do throwing to Lazard and Cobb for a different coach on a different team, and how many snaps they get. There will be plenty of context to address this debate soon.
Johnblood27
May 03, 2023 at 10:00 am
Rodgers knowledge sure led GB to a lot of SB appearances and wins, eh?
Maybe he should be GM as well as coach, eh?
He will be a great addition to the NY J-E-T-S, eh?
Minniman
May 03, 2023 at 02:39 pm
I'm really watching this aspect with somewhat sardonic "interest" - although my primary motive is to see Rodgers get to 65% playing time (and trigger the 2nd to 1st round pick upgrade for the Packers).
There's no doubt that senior players should add strategic value (and be encouraged to do so), but I guess it's a fine line to balance "useful input" to overplaying one's station. Rodgers is kidding himself if he thinks that Saleh will change the Jets playbook just to keep Rodgers in his comfort zone...... but hey, it worked for Peyton and Gary Kubiak at the Broncos in 2016!
Part of me also thinks that (according to his recent statements) Bakh is on the short list to being shipped out too!....... Apparently, Josh Sitton was moved on abruptly a few years ago for being too "lippy".......... putting it nicely, there's still huge question marks if he's even anywhere near close to the same player he was pre knee injury (especially at his cap hit).
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 10:42 am
Yes, but when 50% (or more) of your offense are unilateral decisions by the qb at the line of scrimmage, you get a less balanced and less effective offense. Theres a reason the coaches in the booth are there. They're reviewing screenshots of the defense to see how theyre reacting to their plays after the snap. Its a chess game but Rodgers was too busy playing checkers based on pre-snap reads.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 10:55 am
I agree with you on that, Ron61. You'd be stupid to not use an asset like that.
I'm going to invoke Vince here: In preparing for the Ice Bowl, Kramer noticed he might have a chance to get under Jethro Pugh, and mentioned it to Lombardi, who listened, and put 31 Wedge in the playlist. And when Bart thought he could just sneak it in, he told Vince, and Vince said "Go ahead and run it" , or words to that effect.
Any military officer worth a crap listens to the senior NCOs. A good XO will suggest alternatives and give recommendations, but at the end of the day, he's going to do what he's told to do . IMO, Rodgers probably crossed that line more than once, and he got good results sometimes. Sometimes, he didn't. When he was winning MVPs and winning 13 games, you can let that slide, but when he's an average 39 year old of an 8-9 team and you've got a real good guy ready to play, it's a bigger bone of contention.
Love hasn't saved the galaxy or anything yet, so he's going to be a lot less inclined to go rogue.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 11:41 am
"Run it and lets get the hell out of here!"
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 01:49 pm
Yup!
mnbadger
May 03, 2023 at 12:41 pm
Agreed in total.
In the past, I've blamed MLF for not having enough spine/nads/guts/etc for failing to stand up to the old qb.
Maybe it was more at the direction from his boss?
If that's the case, I apologize to MLF and redirect my scorn to MM.
GPG!
GaryC
May 04, 2023 at 02:00 pm
I still blame MLF. Yes of course take input from 12 but the offense was dull and utterly uninspiring and whatever was in play wasn’t working. When that’s ultimately harming the team that’s on the Head Coach to address. If nothing else surely his pride should kick in.
jannesbjornson
May 03, 2023 at 03:52 pm
Ask Bart.
blondy45
May 03, 2023 at 08:04 pm
Agreed Handsback. Now especially with a roster full of young weapons, it is probable that the offense will be more basic. We should run the ball. We should have many quick passes called. I believe that the young players will get the play call, know what they are supposed to do, and do it. Audibles yes, but not nearly as many as Rodgers called. If a young player did not go to his exact spot with an audible, Rodgers lost faith in that player. The players had a lot of pressure to be on Rodgers "good" side.
Now, the defense can be more aggressive and fly around. I hope we play less zone, more tight man to man. We have CB's who are good man cover players. Put them on an island and rush that QB! With a much better DL (on paper) our LB's should be able to plug gaps. The DL is the key. If our young players hold up on the DL, what a help it will be to the entire Defense.
jurp
May 03, 2023 at 06:31 am
The quotes from the scouts remind me of the various quotes out there about Rodgers when he came out in 2005. Plenty of professionals thought he would amount to nothing. Perhaps if AR had landed on a team with less competent QB coaches than the Packers that might've been true. Or not.
Maybe these professionals are just as competent at making draft assessments as any of our posters here, which should be a scary thought to GMs throughout the league. I wonder if the ones that miss on their assessments ever held to account for being boneheads?
TKWorldWide
May 03, 2023 at 07:19 am
Beat me to it re:12!
I can remember one scout said he “sees the entire field” and another said “tunnel vision, locks in on one receiver”
Opposite assessments on the same trait!
Unless the second guy was predicting the whole Davante Adams thing.
Remember Princess bride where the guy was trying to figure out which wine was poisoned? He went through all kinds of “analysis” but in the end a person making a blind guess would have the same chance of being correct.
To me, that encapsulates the crapshoot that is player evaluation and the NFL draft!
PS, yes, I know, both goblets were poisoned. The dread pirate Roberts had built up an immunity. Is that the same as being immunized? Spooky.
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 07:38 am
"I can remember one scout said he “sees the entire field” and another said “tunnel vision, locks in on one receiver”
Opposite assessments on the same trait!
Unless the second guy was predicting the whole Davante Adams thing."
I'd say early on Rodgers saw the whole field but by 2018 he only had eyes for Davante.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 07:49 am
Never go against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line!
BradHTX
May 03, 2023 at 08:00 am
Good thing Gute has built up an immunity to iocane powder.
TKWorldWide
May 03, 2023 at 10:13 am
I was dragged to that movie in the theater when it came out. I was like, “Princess Bride”? Are you kidding me?
Just like an NFL scout, I was totally wrong. One of my all time favorite movies! I drop quotes from it all the time, and when somebody “gets it”, I know I’ve added another kindred spirit! So, thanks, fellas!
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 02:02 pm
My way is not very sportsman-like.
But, I kid. A lot.
BradHTX
May 03, 2023 at 10:41 am
“The dread pirate Roberts had built up an immunity. Is that the same as being immunized? Spooky.”
I thought the same thing as I typed my comment about Gute.
BirdDogUni
May 03, 2023 at 11:02 am
"I don't think that means what you think it means..."
; P
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 07:37 am
Mike Mayock, one of the "experts," was brought into the Raiders as their GM. His drafts were horrible during his time there. Not surprising he didn't last long as their GM.
TarynsEyes
May 03, 2023 at 08:44 am
Making possible selections for others is not the same as picking for yourself. Besides, and not to stick up for Mayock, but that d-bag Jon 'Chucky' Gruden had final say over Mayock. Actually, Gruden had total control, period. Mayock should have never taken that job.
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 09:02 am
AFAIK it was Mayock who had control of who was drafted though. Gruden had control of almost everything else.
TarynsEyes
May 03, 2023 at 11:07 am
No, it was a reason why McKenzie was let go/left. Gruden was given absolute authority over the draft and who was ultimately selected.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 12:43 pm
I agree that McKenzie was poorly treated and undeservedly so.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 10:45 am
Yup and he got the job because he was Gruden's buddy. Any profession has to be more than just a buddy system, on and off the field.
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 11:28 am
You can be the best friend to your colleague, or vice versa, your colleague may be your best friend - but both should know - job is job and friendship is friendship. Those are 2 separate things and should never ever mixed together, because job will suffer as friendship too.
There is no many people who can divide those 2 two things...
TKWorldWide
May 03, 2023 at 08:44 pm
But it looks so easy on TV!
Bitternotsour
May 03, 2023 at 08:33 am
Rodgers was hugely fortunate to wind up in McCarthy's quarterback school, on a team that allowed him the space to learn and were willing to build an offense around his strengths.
Mike McCarthy built Aaron Rodgers, the HOF quarterback. Rodgers repaid him with insubordination.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 10:48 am
Couldn't agree more. All because Mccarthy toed the company line when he was 49ers OC by saying he agreed with the decision to take Alex Smith over Rodgers. What was he supposed to say? I work for a bunch of idiots and wish they wouldve taken Rodgers instead? Mccarthy was the best thing that ever happened to Rodgers and Rodgers stuck the knife right in his back. But fans who arent loyal to Rodgers are somehow bad fans lol.
NickPerry
May 03, 2023 at 06:32 am
"Weapons? You Want Weapons? - Gutey heeded the call, drafting no less than four new targets during the first five rounds for Jordan Love to have at his disposal this season."
The more I read and watch tape of these new Packers, the more excited I get. Even the guy they picked up in one of the 2nd round trade-downs, this kid Wicks, has LOTS to be really pumped about. Wicks was a beast in 2021 but in 2022 he struggled just like the ENTIRE Virginia offense in 2022. New offense, new HC, & new scheme meant struggles. I think he's closer to the 2021 kid than the 2022 kid.
"On play calling: "It's going to be more on Matt and there's isn't going to be much pushback from a 1st-year starting quarterback in Jordan.... I think there will be more emphasis on the run game."
And thank God for this. NOW, we get to see the REAL MLF offense. More TE's because well, they actually have a couple now. More passes in the middle of the field with more motion, and a QB who will actually run plays from under center. I think Dillon has a fantastic year running the ball. No matter what, it's going to be a LOT of fun to watch.
"On establishing a new team identity: "We have a young team that's hungry and people are already counting out. Great! Harness that and take it and use that. Use that as an FU mentality all year. I think that should be the first thing we do moving forward."
Just HELL YEAH!
PeteK
May 03, 2023 at 09:23 am
Bak should know because a big part of the offense's success will hinge on the O line, his health and the further development of Myers, Runyan, Nijman, and Tom. If they make even a moderate improvement, this line could be very good and help carry this team to a very competitive season.
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 11:42 am
NickPerry do you know why I'm so certain that Jordan Love will be excellent QB at NFL level?
He is rarely mention in any ACR jubling bublings.
1. after 2020 draft he was obviously not pleased but his rare public comment was: "No I was not informed, but I understand why they did it (draft Jordan Love)!";
2. after one year on watching Jordan Love in practices the Hell brake out, just before 2021 draft should start;
3. he did not want to give Jordan Love (and Packers) chance to show what he can do as starter of the game despite his injury (I think it was more about over extended ligaments in his hand/thumb than broken bone);
4. at McAffe show after his "darkness retreat" when asked about Jordan Love he just drop short sentence in tone and pose that he will not talk more about Jordan Love: "He is ready! (to play)". If he is not good and has no talent I'm sure he will be more willing to give his opinion publicly how Packers are stupid to go with Jordan Love. That is something stronger than he in himself.
CheesedDeadHead
May 03, 2023 at 01:24 pm
"No I was not informed, but I understand why they did it (draft Jordan Love)!"
I guess it took him 3 years to figure out his phone would only pick up facetime calls.
I hope Gute has the chance at some point to respond again to the issue about informing Rodgers about the Love pick and he says something like - "we called, but he never picked up. I guess he had some long-term issues with his cell reception."
justjan
May 03, 2023 at 02:11 pm
I don't think Gute is that childish.
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 06:37 am
Youth movement -
I’m all-in.
Weapons?
This is an exciting, talented group of skill players. Musgrave is huge, not your average “move” TE at all. He can block in-line AND move like the best of the moves.
Kraft is a sexy beast. Not your average “in-line” because the kid can MOVE! Cleans some clocks too, with a passion for destroying the guy in front of him.
Sandwiched in there, LaFleur’s entire bag of jet concept tricks in Jayden Reed. One helluva fast, elusive, TOUGH 5-11 WR.
Lindy’s ranked WR Grant DuBose #19 Overall, directly behind #18, Cedric Tillman.
Dontayvion Wicks? #14 Overall.
WOW!
Kickers?
This was a Bisaccia pick all the way. He knows the Carlson family and Anders’ story. An aggressive move showing how badly Bisaccia wanted him.
Playing it Safe(ty?)
All I know is Sunday’s cherry on top, UDFA signing Brenton Cox, paired with Hurcules, and Gary, and our DL pass rush is going to make Darnell Savage look like a 1st Team All-Pro.
So No MO FA
I could see an NT added to our roster at cutdowns. Maybe. Our DL was just such a mess these past 3 years allowing Lowry, essentially a roster hole with legs, to remain on this Packers team.
I do like Ford, and I’m a huge Slaton fan. Hoping like hell they move Clark back to his natural, more effective NT in a solid rotation. Should be able to do that with Wooden, Brooks added. Plus, last year’s R5 Enagbare (84 1/4” wingspan!!!) & new adds LVN & Cox Jr. can play outside/inside. Quick note: Enagbare might be better inside, w his spin move & leverage.
DBAK
Class act all the way. The “FU mentality?” Bring it!!!
On how the Packers will do?
We want to be free
To do what we want to do!
We just got loaded.
We’re gonna win.
We’re gonna have a party.
On play calling
4 years into Matt LaFleur’s tenure we will FINALLY see his scheme. That says a lot about a tumultuous relationship with darkness. I can’t wait to see the light.
On establishing a new team identity
1. Flounder: “Ohhh boy! Is this great!”
2. The rest of the NFL is sleeping on the Packers. Let ‘em sleep, while they think they can. Zzzzzzzzzzz!
McGinn Scouts
They run the spectrum from great to poor. Always have. Always will.
Really great work, Al, and thanks for sharing.
I haven’t been this excited for a season to begin since 1996, maybe the Woodson/Jordy years.
ReaganRulz
May 03, 2023 at 07:29 am
Glad that you mentioned Cox Jr, GreenGold!!I was not familiar with him until Monday. Watched some of his highlights and he was impressive. Of course these are cherry picked to an extent. The guy has been an absolute head-case being dismissed from both UofGeorgia and UofFlorida. He sure looks like he plays faster and far better than his testing shows. Hope that he ends up being something!!
https://youtu.be/WfEfEx6nmCk
The_Justicar
May 03, 2023 at 07:50 am
As a gator season ticket holder I have seen Cox play a ton. His first years he struggled to set the edge - went solo/rogue alot - getting out of the rush lane and giving up big runs. He improved greatly on that bus last year (before being dismissed). He is good at rushing the passer- good first step and good hands. He blows up alot of plays with how fast he gets back there. Also missed like 20 more sacks in his career as just misses the qb.
While dismissed from Uf they did let him participate in the gator pro day so he must not be all bad.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 08:49 am
He punched a player after a blatant horse collar last year. Foolish, worthy of discipline, but, not grounds for dismissal from the team alone. Instead, as previously, he seems to have been a disruptive locker room presence. Maybe the kid just has socialization problems. I can’t find any knock on his work ethic or suggestions of significant issues away from football. I do note that his handling of the separation was widely commended apparently.
In GB he’s among the smallest fish in the pond. He’s not going to be allowed to be an ass. If he’s realized that, then he’s a steal. He was a consensus top 100 player before the dismissal.
He’s going to have to learn lane discipline and find some way to increase hip flexibility to really fulfill his athletic potential, but, in raw talent terms, he’s going to push Enagbare hard. He’s strong, good against the run if he holds assignment, he fits our prototype.
I truly hope he’s learned. We aren’t a team that takes bad people regularly. I’m thinking that there’s some personal connection and a lot of background work in play here.
The_Justicar
May 03, 2023 at 02:45 pm
Great analysis. Thanks.
NickPerry
May 04, 2023 at 06:48 am
Our voice of reason...Thanks CW!
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 03:55 pm
Good, Justicar! Seems a more mutual, amicable split as described by Cox Jr?
I’m stoked about him, and thought Georgia shafted him. He’ll be fine in Green Bay.
Coldworld
May 04, 2023 at 08:30 am
I wouldn’t describe it as amicable. If I read anything into the little out there, it was a sense that there was sympathy for him but that he somehow wore through it too much to remain on the inside. I sense they wanted to do as much to help him but could no longer live with him as a team member. Anger no, resignation yes.
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 07:59 am
“Exuberant”described myself upon learning Benton Cox Jr. was signed in UDFA. “Stupid exuberant,” a better descriptor.
Football Outsiders ranked our DL #32 in 2022.
Our run defense has been abysmal since way before the signing of the Smith Bros. How many years ago was that? 5?
Finally, an overt emphasis was made to put that to bed. Every drafted defender excels in RUN STOP.
Good.
UDFA same. Huge.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 11:12 am
OK, gg.
If the Dline is the worst in the league, and our DC, Barry, is an incompetent loser, then how do we manage, every year, to put at least an average defense---as measured by points allowed---on the field?
The math on that doesn't work out for me.
I'm also going to ask another question that I've asked many times, and have never received a satisfactory explanation. If an average run gains 5 yards, and an average pass ATTEMPT gains 7 yards, why do you want to stop the run so badly? So that they can throw more?
Take Minnesota, for example. Cousins completes 66% of his passes for 6.9 yards per attempt; Dalvin Cook rushes for 4.5 yards/attempt. If I am the defensive coordinator. I'd encourage them to try to run that ball 75 yards into the endzone, because sooner or later, they're going to get a penalty or somebody is going to mess up and they're going to be in a situation where they have to complete a pass on 3rd down or give up the ball, and if they give up the ball without scoring any points, all those rushing yards didn't really matter.
If we stuff the run on first down, it makes it much more likely that they'll pass on 2nd and 3rd down. There's a 90% chance they'll complete at least one of those, and they average 11 yards/completion.
Plus...a big % of big plays and TDs in this league are a result of a pass. Minnesota has some dangerous WRs. So if they want to keep plugging Dalvin Cook into the line for 5 or 6 yards, that seems to be better for us, no?
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 02:12 pm
Hey, I’m not Football Outsiders.
You might check blitzing…. I did. Math works.
I don’t think another team blitzed more, especially on 3rd down, than GB through something like the first 12-13 weeks?
Let me add, I’m not bitching about Barry all that much because I think there’s been a completely different tact & focus defensively.
Like everybody at first I was like “WTF?”
Moving away from Pettine required adding completely different players to run what I’ve suspected to be a morph of the SEA Legion of Boom, Dungy’s Tampa 2 and the STL Super Bowl winning D.
They’re going with a D that shows the same “Illusion of Complexity,” theme LaFleur runs on O. This I suspect was the brainchild of both Gutekunst & LaFleur, and they made Joe Barry a partner. My hunch.
One big Safety like Cam Chancellor (Tarvarius Moore) one small speedster who can ball skill and hit from everywhere like Earl Thomas (Antonio Johnson Jr.)… Darnell Savage…?
Stokes originally for the Richard Sherman role. Jaire for the Byron Maxwell role?
They might have missed out of the gate on Stokes (even when healthy, zone not his suit). Enter, Carrington Valentine. High ceiling, zone/press with some solid run stop.
Every DB recently added able to play both zone & man with ease. Speed on the edges. Tenacious DL who can move and make plays. It’s been a 3 year plan of talent acquisition.
LBs who can morph in & out of Safety roles…etc. etc.
Now, we’ll see if my hunch is right.
If that’s what they’re doing, I like it! They needed the LB pairing to start. Campbell & Walker. We’ve in-filled nicely, it appears.
LH, I think this is what we are seeing being formed on D, before our very eyes.
13TimeChamps
May 03, 2023 at 07:45 pm
"Now, we’ll see if my hunch is right."
I know I said I was taking a break, but I thought I would pop in for a brief update and this is what I find:
Tarvarius Moore is our Cam Chancellor.
Antonio Johnson Jr is our Earl Thomas.
Eric Stokes is our Richard Sherman.
You've gone from trying to replace our entire Oline with draft picks to claiming we now have a HOF defensive backfield.
No, your hunch is not right. Once again.
Back to my darkness and cleansed bowels.
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 06:56 pm
For whatever reason, the Packers stopped blitzing on 3rd Dow with about 5-6 games left in the season - and we were one of the best in the NFL with that.
It’s a mystery to me.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 11:40 am
Cox also had a pretty unimpressive combine and although he improved his bench at his pro day from 24 to a good 29, he again ran a slow 40 for an edge, 4.8. His did not redo his 3 cone from the combine, which was a very poor 7.57. The rest of his results were just average.
It’s fair to say that those performances would have dropped him in the draft anyway. Was that an inaccurate reflection due to his layoff? It’s also worth noting that he tells the media it’s not his job to figure out why he was released on either occasion and he just thinks his competitive nature was misconstrued. Apparently that was his line with teams at the combine. That may not have helped either.
It’s up to him, he’s going to have to be a better player than he tested as and he’s going to have to have, at least privately, learned more than he is revealing publicly.
Bear
May 03, 2023 at 08:30 am
ReaganRulz, Thanks!
jannesbjornson
May 03, 2023 at 10:20 am
Moss was moved by Notre Dame and Florida State and finished at Marshall. HIs own man. See what happens with Cox. He was noticed when Florida' defense was on the field.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 11:44 am
Moss was also a once in a lifetime type of talent which is why he was still a 1st round pick. Cox is not Moss. Sure maybe everything clicks and he has a decent career, but Moss' floor was still 5 stories higher than Cox's ceiling.
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 07:47 am
"Playing it Safe(ty?)
All I know is Sunday’s cherry on top, UDFA signing Brenton Cox, paired with Hurcules, and Gary, and our DL pass rush is going to make Darnell Savage look like a 1st Team All-Pro."
Don't sleep on their R7 safety pick in Anthony Johnson Jr. He only transitioned from CB to safety last season and he did pretty well. He is a heavier and more athletic version of Brian Branch.
"On establishing a new team identity
1. Flounder: “Ohhh boy! Is this great!”
2. The rest of the NFL is sleeping on the Packers. Let ‘em sleep, while they think they can. Zzzzzzzzzzz!"
I hope LVN brings that hockey enforcer mentality to the rest of the team. He wanted to knock the snot out of the other team and if that physicality mentality is transferred to the rest of the team look out. I want a D that will punish the opposing offense. Make them think that every time they get tackled it is going to hurt. They will start getting jittery then and make mistakes.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 08:23 am
"I hope LVN brings that hockey enforcer mentality to the rest of the team."
There needs to be that shift in mindset. Packers teams have been viewed as soft/finesse teams for a long time. It dulls team speed and allows opponents to set the tone and put you on your heels. This team is plenty fast, but they need to play fast and play hard--and clean--to half a beat past the whistle.
PeteK
May 03, 2023 at 09:37 am
We certainly got faster and quicker at the DE position which has been missing.
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 09:22 am
DoubleJ - it’s funny. Haven’t slept on any of our players. I just didn’t want to write an epic visual speed bump. Lolz.
I really like both Anthony Johnson Jr (243 tackles, 14 TFL, 3 sacks, 5 FF, 30 PBU, 2 INT over 62 games and 54 starts), and UDFA signing from Baylor, S Christian Morgan (163 tackles, 7.5 TFL, 2 sacks, 7 INT, 2 FF and 12 PD over 110 games).
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 10:52 am
Per Andy Herman, Van Ness led his hockey league in penalty minutes. Probably the greatest bit of prospect info ive ever heard in my life.
Rebelgb
May 03, 2023 at 04:34 pm
Best comment today! As someone who played hockey I agree. I still have friends and family who tell me what a good hockey player I was (I stopped playing in middle school). But the only thing I remember being good at was being meaner than the other kids and spending most my time in the penalty box....lol.
In high school and beyond I was decent at other sports despite limited talent; I think my hockey mentality had a lot to do with that.
NFL should draft more 2 sport hockey guys!!!
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 11:11 am
I can’t help but think this is spot on:
From Connor Orr at SI—
“Life after Rodgers: I think people may be sleeping a bit on the strength of the Packers’ draft class. My favorite part was doubling down on the tight end position with the Day 2 additions of Luke Musgrave and Tucker Kraft, who will truly diversify this front while helping Matt LaFleur reinvest in the running game. These are big, rangy pass catchers who can block, stretch the field and increase the yardage after the catch in the quick game. I don’t know whether this is necessarily the kind of formational feel Rodgers would have liked. But now that he’s gone, the Packers can fortify Jordan Love and hand him the pieces on offense that can force opposing defenses into base looks.”
I want to add something here. RB Lew Nichols lll is not only a great 3rd down back, goal line back, but that dude is BIG, and doubles as a FB. I could easily see Josiah Deguara having the fight of his life to keep a roster spot.
Deguara isn’t much of a FB-type blocker in the running game. Nichols has some William Henderson to him.
Just a great point though by Connor Orr here. We have a great opportunity to control games now with an even more potent rushing assault.
Would be smart to spread that on thick with JL in his first year QB1.
BAMABADGER
May 03, 2023 at 09:35 am
G&G you are correct on signing Brenton Cox a troubled but very talented young man. Packers typically pass on an emotionally, undisciplined player. Hopefully, Packer management has established a sports psychologist program to assist, develop, and harness the emotion maturity of some of it's young players. No greater place than Green Bay WI to experience and develop humility. Nothing but positive success for them all, GPG!
PeteK
May 03, 2023 at 09:43 am
Bad Company's "Rock Steady" should be theme song for Walker and Cox.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 09:45 am
Colt Lyerla.
He got hurt after he came to GB, but was someone with his own personal demons. In some ways, this is reminiscent of him.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 09:53 am
His seem to have been a bit more legally significant. Degree aside, I see your point.
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 11:03 am
Funny, but Gutekunst still has Ron Wolf’s ear. I think he solicits his advice to this day.
Can hear Wolf say, “You know Brian, I signed a LB like that once. Wayne Simmons. Won a Super Bowl with him! Wish I had kept him. We might have won 2 or 3…”
Rebelgb
May 03, 2023 at 04:35 pm
Absolutely loved Wayne Simmons....
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 04:09 pm
Lol, BAMA!!!
Thankfully, our failed poster child on the humility part of our tour was shipped off to NYJ.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 10:50 am
+1000 points for the Animal House reference 🤣
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 11:04 am
🤣😂🤪
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 12:20 pm
Greengold, here is 12 UDFAs, Packers signed:
No. Name Pos Ht Wt College HS Hometown
51 Keshawn Banks LB 6-3 251 San Diego State Rio Rancho, N.M.
57 Brenton Cox Jr. LB 6-4 250 Florida Stockbridge, Ga.
65 Chuck Filiaga G 6-6 321 Minnesota Aledo, Texas
18 Malik Heath WR 6-2 213 Mississippi Jackson, Miss.
60 Jason Lewan DL 6-6 293 Illinois State Yorkville, Ill.
40 Camren McDonald TE 6-4 237 Florida State Long Beach, Calif.
49 Christian Morgan S 6-0 200 Baylor Porter, Texas
44 Henry Pearson FB 6-2 249 Appalachian St Paramus, N.J.
46 Jimmy Phillips Jr. LB 6-1 232 SMU Mesquite, Texas
48 Benny Sapp III S 5-11200 Northern Iowa Eden Prairie, Minn.
77 Kadeem Telfort T 6-7 322 UAB Miami, Fla.
22 Duece Watts WR 6-1 196 Tulane Petal, Miss.
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 04:46 pm
Thanks croat!!!
Watched a bunch of S Christian Morgan and WR Deuce Watts.
Holy ball! Those are two solid signings!
Have you looked at any? I wasn’t super hot on the other WR, but didn’t get to see enough of him either.
Coldworld
May 04, 2023 at 09:04 am
The 2 OL are both very large men Filiaga is a strong OL with some nasty but very limited lateral mobility. He’s 6’6 and 330. Built like T, but with very limited lateral mobility, he’s almost certainly going to have to play G. That’s a challenge at 6’6 unless he bends well. Good at opening run lanes. He isn’t as athletic as Newman but he’s got a similar strength in getting the next level blocking done in the run game, by power as opposed to burst though. There some similarity with Tenuta, who is another massive if short armed tackle that seems to project to G but for his height, but is more laterally mobile.
Telfort is a 6’7 322 pound T with long arms, he looks the part. He’s got some mobility but he doesn’t seem to be the athlete that Walker is or the slimmed down Jones. He plays too upright, needs to learn to bend. He looks more athletic than his abysmal testing, but he also appears to coast at times at others he’s got that nasty. I can see flashes, but I much prefer Jones and Walker. How much does he really want it, and how coachable is he? Why did he test so badly and below expectations? He might be better a little lighter. It could be poor coaching with him, but his technique needs work. I think he’s a guy worth looking at, but whom our coaches will quickly decide upon one way or the other once the work begins as I think it’s as much a question of what’s between the ears as to whether he’s worth investing in.
Coldworld
May 04, 2023 at 09:20 am
There are still 2 spots open on the roster and in the past one or two have come from tryouts. Not much info on who we are having try out, but I did find this list.
LB Jacquez Jones (Kentucky), undersized 225 LB. Good tackler but marginal athleticism. Better season before transfer last year. Probably a ST profile.
RB Jamyest Williams (Georgia State), tiny RB who was a S till his final year. No idea how he’d fit other than STs. He’s a returner.
S Javon Scruggs (Liberty), tough, hard tackling and working box type but limited athleticism.
OT Isaac Moore (Temple), Projects to G, strong but poor lateral agility. Best in the run game. A lot of experience. Might be one who earns a longer look.
Edge Justin Ademilola (Notre Dame), nice physical specimen who played multiple roles similar to our picks but is probably a 3 tech. Great motor, strong, but borderline athleticism.
P Shane McDonough (NC State),
B.R. Hatcher, LS, Old Dominion.
Normally we have about twice that, but the lower vet numbers and higher number of draft picks may limit it this year.
Coldworld
May 04, 2023 at 12:01 pm
Heath is rather similar to Dubose. Tough, physical big receiver with good hands projecting to an X role but capable of playing tough over the middle. Like DuBose, he’s not fast for the NFL level and probably is a big target possession type. Pretty decent from what film I’ve seen. Essentially doubling up on a type.
Watts is a similar type to Reed. Tall and slender, long arms, and an ability to get open through explosiveness, he’s not quick footed. He has good hands, though I think some technique issues that allow them to improve further. He’s just not as athletic as Reed, certainly not as fast as the Packers think Reed is. He’s a guy who could be a decent Y type who will get open over the middle. He will get open, but YAC may be limited.
Packer_Fan
May 03, 2023 at 06:48 am
"So please don't come in here with draft grades or with blanket proclamations that so-and-so was a wasted pick. It means nothing." I totally agree.
Will all 13 picks be stars or at least starters? No. Hopefully three or four would qualify as a good draft. Five or six would be a great daft. It seems to me that Gute likes to select multiple picks in hope that he hits on one quality player. In this draft he did that with TE, WR and DL. Van Ness I believe has the talent to be a starter. There is no certainty, only mathematical chance and the more picks you have, the better chance you have at being successful. Of course there are some GM's that seem to so better. But Gute hasn't demonstrated that yet.
But I sure hope this draft is great!
On a dark note. This salary cap hell was brought on mostly by Aaron Rodgers. Or more likely, it was inevitable. You can't pay one guy 25% of the total salary and not have this happen. So cudos to Gute picking Love because it gives the Packers a chance to reset
TKWorldWide
May 03, 2023 at 07:29 am
The best place to find ‘dark notes’ is on the dark web.
But I can’t find the dark web.
UdderApocowlipse
May 03, 2023 at 09:02 am
It's hiding in the dark matter.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 08:03 am
"This salary cap hell was brought on mostly by Aaron Rodgers. "
More indirectly than directly. His cap hits were never the $50M AAV that was quoted--they were usually under about $32M. The problem came from the cap contraction due to covid and the desire to win in 12's window. The Packers were forced to do some cap acrobatics to keep guys that screwed everything up. 12 is in the middle of it, and his contract seemed to get touched up, reworked, or extended every year to generate more breathing room, but his % of the cap usually wasn't near 25%.
packerbackerjim
May 03, 2023 at 08:47 am
Salary cap hell was brought on by Gute.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 09:13 am
2 seasons of trying to get back to competitiveness fast after the mid teens mess under Ball followed by 3 Last Dances will do that. Personally I think Gute would have nixed the last encore and that he should have been allowed to. One year too far, and while we redeemed ourselves somewhat, we still pay heavily this year in cap terms for Rodgers and other contracts pushed out to keep the band together. I think Amos will be eating the 3rd biggest cap chunk this year, for example.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 11:19 am
I'd like "salary cap hell" explained to me, by somebody.
According to Spotrac, the Packers have about $18million available after accounting for signing the draft picks. That puts them in the 8th best position. That's Salary Cap Hell?
And yes, this is even considering the $40 million in dead cap that we're absorbing from the Rodgers trade, which netted us Musgrave and the Jets first round pick next year, probably around 25 or so.
If the Packers are in Salary Cap Hell, are 24 other teams in the league in a lower circle of Salary Cap Hell?
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
IMO, we should stop using that term. It's not accurate.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 11:52 am
What you're leaving out are the hoops they had to jump through to get to this point. Restructures have consequences. Here's what we have to look forward to next year: Bakhtiari $40 mil cap hit with $19 mil pre June 1st dead cap hit, Clark $27 mil cap hit with $24 mil pre June 1st dead cap hit, Aaron Jones $17 mil cap hit with $13 mil pre June 1st dead cap hit, Preston Smith $16.5 mil cap hit with $13.9 pre June 1st dead cap hit, Devondrae Campbell $14.4 mil cap hit with $11.6 mil pre June 1st dead cap hit, and Rasul Douglas $11.6 mil cap hit with $5.7 mil dead cap hit. And they're still gonna have to give Gary a monster deal and lock Dillon up. Make no mistake about it, this team is very much in cap hell. Even with the salary cap set to explode in 2024, Packers will be extremely limited in what they can do cap wise.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 11:59 am
Jumping through hoops is what we pay the Front Office for. It's part of the game. Look at all the hoops Chicago jumped through so they'd have the most available cap space of any team. Every front office jumps through hoops, some better than others.
You're projecting things that may not happen regarding players who may not be part of the team next year. In fact, IMO, most of the players you named will not be part of the team next year.
Again, why are we in Salary Cap Hell?
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 11:57 am
In all fairness, I think TGR has laid it out very clearly on numerous occasions. For another perspective, consider the need to convert Savages option into a bonus spread over 4 dead years just to get Love signed through 2024.
This season we are carrying $57 million in dead cap to players who are no longer on our roster:
Aaron Rodgers, $40,313,750 (trade, Jets)
Adrian Amos, $7.950,000 (void, free agent)
Dean Lowry, $3,007,875 (void, Vikings)
Jarran Reed, $1,492,000 (void, Seahawks)
Randall Cobb, $1,391,668 (void, free agent)
Marcedes Lewis, $1,050,000 (void, free agent)
Mason Crosby, $1,005,000 (void, free agent)
Robert Tonyan, $500,000 (void, Bears)
Amari Rodgers, $461,782 (released last season)
Total: $57,143,579
Yes, we are in Cap Hell. I see little point in denying it. The good news is that now Rodgers and some others will be off that list, not adding to more to it in 2024. Then we begin to escape.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 12:01 pm
TGR has explained our situation. I understand our situation. What I don't understand is why so many people seem to believe our situation is much worse than most other teams, because it isn't.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 12:12 pm
Yes, it is. The difference is that we’ve almost entirely maxed out our wiggle room. Most teams haven’t at this time of year as they lacked our pressing needs to sort out Love and our backlog of prior decisions. That’s why our oft cited “free cap space” number (particularly by the late and unlamented STR) on OTC etc . is misleading, as TGR has explained, and differs so much from the perspectives of Ingalls and other cap experts.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 01:36 pm
I appreciate this honest attempt at an explanation. I want to make sure I'm understanding.
Most teams have more "wiggle room' than the Packers. You know this because OTC's numbers (or Spotrac) are misleading.
Am I correctly stating this? Did you, or anybody else , actually sit down and figure out the "wiggle room"? Spotrac did the math, and by applying the same math standard as every other team, they concluded we were in better shape than quite a few teams.
You're also stating that most teams didn't have the kind of pressing needs that we did. I'm going to have to raise an eyebrow on that one, too.
As I look at our cap situation, today, May 3, we've got our guys signed, we have money to sign our rookies, we probably have some money left to bring Amos back (which would help explain why we didn't draft one early in the draft). And when Opening Day hits, we'll be under the cap and we're not going to have to release anybody for purely financial reasons.
I don't see that as Hell. I'd call it an efficient management of scarce resources.
SoCalJim
May 03, 2023 at 01:59 pm
Sportrac shows our “wiggle room” is going to be $16,160, after signing all of our 2023 rookie class.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 02:06 pm
One of us is misreading that. I'm seeing $18 million , and that's after dead cap and rookie signings. Top 51 salaries.
SoCalJim
May 03, 2023 at 06:07 pm
I think I’m reading it wrong. Top 51 salaries until the season starts. My bad.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 02:37 pm
Look at what we have left to restructure. That’s the “wiggle room”. We don’t have a lot left to spread out on players we want to extend in GB and we are pretty close to out on players where we could restructure past their contract. Those we have left are very small amounts and few in number. Most of what we have is now locked in.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 03:49 pm
I agree with all that, but we have the team we want in 2023. 2024 is a long year away and we won't have the $40 in Rodgers dead cap next year.
We have a tight situation this year. I'll agree to that. We're not in Cap Hell, and we aren't worse off than most other teams.
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 04:55 pm
Hey, Tiger!!!
Might wanna cool that 2024 pick for AR into an R2, and if by some miracle, that patchwork line of rookies and infirmary warriors can block the NFL’s best efforts (as we came to know for almost 20 years) for 9 or 11 games? Whoosh!!!
Please, please, please!!!
As for the $18M: Rashan Gary + rainy day fund. Like, $1.00.
Lol
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 12:03 pm
No, it is not Brian Gutekunst responsibility. It is Russ Ball responsibility. By the scheme publicly announced by CEO/President "we are not idiots" Mark Murphy. And part of the blame goes to his direction as he is at the top of the scheme and he has to approve everyrthing!
Make your data corrected, please...
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 10:03 am
The salary cap initiated in 1994 penalizes good teams.
Not
For
Long
Some teams are just better working it than others. The Patriots 6 Super Bowl victories since the last real dynasty, and only real dynasty since.
Salary cap hell comes from either trying to win Championships, or being really stupid.
Woody Johnson just won a major award in that latter category. I don’t see that working out too well, yet, the ball… it’s oblong.
Lol
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 08:07 am
"So cudos to Gute picking Love because it gives the Packers a chance to reset"
The best time to find a QB is when you don't need one.
PeteK
May 03, 2023 at 09:50 am
- The good news is that we have depth/choices which should allow some time for development of our rooks, except TE.
- We have some cap room to sign some needs during the season.
TKWorldWide
May 03, 2023 at 07:20 am
If a fan can’t be optimistic at this time of year, I don’t see the fun in it.
Bitternotsour
May 03, 2023 at 08:39 am
true for every franchise in the NFL. the draft, the arguments, the speculation. at the end of day 3 everyone gathers around to look at highlight reels and think - oh my, this seventh round pick, he might be special...
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 05:02 pm
(Checks for the hundredth time…)
Carrington Valentine
Lew Nichols lll
Anthony Johnson Jr.
Grant DuBose
😂🤣😂
Actually, the Packers R7 is hot AF. All 4 players appear to be fantastic selections.
ROUND 7
Pick #232 CB Carrington Valentine - Kentucky
6-0 193 4.44 (72%) 39” vertical (85%) 128” broad (86%)
LENGTH, SPEED, AGGRESSION, TENACIOUS, MIRROR, FLUID, Changes direction on a dime.
INSTINCTS. Very strong in zone coverage. Also +press-man.
Exceptional athlete. Twitchy quick w track star long speed.
Long arms to succeed in press-man coverage, AND heavy, solid zone experience. Reactive, fluid & sticks to WRs.
Sees routes develop and able to run with receivers. +drive mechanics in zone. Eager to jump slant routes. VERY COMPETITIVE. Takes completions personally. Innately driven and DB Coach’s dream. Led Kentucky in PDs with 17.
Works hard in RUN D.
STs >>> Regular on KR coverage, PR coverage and PR teams
Boundary CB in zone heavy scheme with enticing blend of tools/physicality perfect for NFL.
NEGATIVE: allows big plays +20 (8) Also needs consistency tackling in run game. Just needs to polish skills & technique both coverage & v. run.
Long, athletic, aggressive CB yet to reach ceiling as man cover, ball instincts and technique - all underdeveloped. Zone/Press corner projection.
—
Pick #235 RB Lew Nichols - Central Michigan
5-10 220 37” vertical!!!! 22 bench
Built. Patient. Coordinated. + decisions at LOS. +physical, + strength, + stiff arm
*** 1848 yds rushing in 2021 - averaged 29.3 touches/game
Bursts through narrow holes at line. Tackle breaker. Quickness & power. Very productive, determined runner. Workhorse.
71 career receptions for 575 yds and 8.1 ypc
—
Pick #242 Anthony Johnson Jr. - Iowa St.
6-0 207 4.54, 75.5” wingspan, 37.5 vertical (75%) 125 broad (77%)
Tackling, Run D, Coverage, Zone and Man/Press ALL 77%
243 tackles, 14 TFL, 3 sacks, 5 FF, 30 PBU, 2 INT over 62 games and 54 starts.
Versatile, but at his best in RUN D. Tough run defender who flashes press-man & zone coverage ability. Aggressive. Punishing, with crushing blows.
+ vision +recognition +awareness +diagnose +hard worker +explosion +lateral. Fluid reverse hip flip. Both productive and consistent. Needs coaching up in coverage. Converted CB with ball skills.
CB coverage with S eyes. Reads & deciphers quickly, reacting in a flash with nose for ball. Jumps routes. Drives fast on plays in front of him.
Tall framed with long arms. Great plant/cut. Great straight line speed. Great hip flip turn & chase. Active communicator pre snap.
TON of starting experience (4 years at CB, 1 year at S)
Still learning Deep Safety after 4 yrs at CB. Very comfortable in the box/slot. Still getting acclimated there.
GREAT press-man & zone skills. Very good in Red Zone and Screen game. Great at reacting to the QB in coverage.
You can’t teach his effort.
—
Pick # 256 WR Grant DuBose - Charlotte
6-2 201 4.57, hands 9 1/2”, wingspan 78”, vertical 35”, broad 10’ 5”
+size, + frame, + length, +fluid, +++ routes, +contested catch - OWNS the ball. Rare dropped pass. +balance, ++++TOUGH.
Plays bigger than he is with natural ball skills. +adjusements mid-air. Body fluidity route runner with immense catch point talent. Jump ball weapon. Zone beater.
YAC, STs!!! >>> PR (8.4 yds/att), PC tackle machine.
murf7777
May 03, 2023 at 07:21 am
“So please don't come in here with draft grades or with blanket proclamations that so-and-so was a wasted pick. It means nothing.“
Best comment of the year!
Since'61
May 03, 2023 at 08:02 am
That comment aligns with how I feel about the draft grades and proclamations made during this time of year. They mean nothing. No one knows what is going to happen until any of these players step in the field in an actual NFL regular season game. That is why I always to refer to this time of year as the hype/propaganda/speculation season which will continue until the first week of the regular season. When the season begins the reality becomes separated from hype and propaganda. Thanks, Since '61
Ferrari-Driver
May 03, 2023 at 10:08 am
Good point. That is when you find out if you drafted a Tony Mandarich in the first round or if you signed a Willie Wood as a free agent gem who winds up in the NFL Hall of Fame.
Johnblood27
May 03, 2023 at 10:12 am
So Since '61, it is Super Bowl season for the minnitonka viqueens...
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 04:26 pm
True, Since’61.
Nothing wrong with liking players drafted, imagining how they fit and where, projecting talent increases at positions, etc. That’s all good fun. Won’t know much for a while & longer.
I’m still waiting to see what we’ve got in LB Tariq Carpenter. Eric Stokes. Shemar Jean Charles. Newman. Hanson. Innes Gaines….
Oops! I think I just slipped into an alternate universe!!!!
Innes Gaines? Still here!
egbertsouse
May 03, 2023 at 07:24 am
Ah, May! When everything blooms and every draft pick is a future HOFer! I’m not a draftnik so I know nothing about any of these guys but history tells me that a couple will be good and the rest will be gone in 3 years.
Untylu1968
May 03, 2023 at 11:41 am
I would say there's a lot less knee-jerk HOF predictions as there are instant bust before they've ever had a chance to prove otherwise predictions..
RCPackerFan
May 03, 2023 at 07:41 am
Youth movement -
I call this point in time critical for the future of our organization. Last year we had 11 picks. This year we had 13. That is 24 players in the last 2 drafts. In the last 2 drafts we have come away with 6 WR's, 2 TE's and 1 RB. That is a huge amount of resources put into the offensive weaponry. Next year we will have an extra pick in either the first or 2nd round.
While not all of the 13 players may make the team, right now I am not saying they all won't make it either.
Weapons? You Want Weapons? -
oh we wanted weapons and we got weapons! We added 3 WR's and 2 TE's. Both TE's we brought in are big and very athletic. They will be a part of the passing game. Reed will compliment Watson and Doubs. While Reed will most likely be a slot WR he can play outside. He will be a guy they will likely use in motion as well. He should be an instant impact player. Both TE's should be instant impact players for us. Both can stretch the field and provide reliable options in the passing game. While Wicks and DuBose came later in the draft, they are 2 guys not to count out. All 3 WR's were at the Senior Bowl.
I'm excited to see what our new weapons do, and how they mesh with last years 3 drafted weapons.
Kickers -
In Rich we trust.
Playing it safe-ty? -
Packers could have taken Branch at 45. They traded down. They could have taken Jordan Battle at 78. At 116 they could have taken Jamie Robinson. They chose to not take any of these guys who were all mocked to GB numerous of times. They chose to take the players they did, and decided to wait until the 7th where they took Anthony Johnson. I for one am happy with Johnson. I think there is a chance he starts from day 1.
No MO FA - Something tells me the Packers are likely done bringing in any free agents with one possible exception. I had assumed they would look for a FA DL after the draft, as it seems there are always some run-stoppers waiting for a contract offer. However, they spent two picks on DL help, so the only move I could see them making would be to bring Adrian Amos back if the price were right. The Packers did just make moves with Savage and Love to free up some cap space this year and next. My guess is there should be enough room for an Amos deal if he is so inclined to take it instead of going elsewhere.
McGinn Scout quotes -
It would be interesting to know of the scouts he is quoting, how many of them have been right and how many of them have not been right.
Bitternotsour
May 03, 2023 at 08:42 am
Re: McGinn
I always thought he made that shit up. Talking to imaginary guys on the barstool next to his. Truth be told, he probably still gets Ron Wolf on the phone, so he gets that.
PeteK
May 03, 2023 at 10:01 am
Sounds like me in my man cave during Thurs and Fri drafts. LOL
RCPackerFan
May 03, 2023 at 10:21 am
I would love to know who he is getting these quotes from.
I'm not a fan of McGinn.
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 12:10 pm
"McGinn Scout quotes -
It would be interesting to know of the scouts he is quoting, how many of them have been right and how many of them have not been right."
With no wish to defend anybody, I can say with certain level of reliability that those scouts has up and down years in their assessments as any of those types.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 03:51 pm
There is a website called TheHuddleReport, and it's been around for a long time, and it has kept track of how various sites have done regarding draft predictions and placement. Do you know who the person/site is who has the best record?
It used to be McGinn. Now, he's not included anymore. But he's definitely wired into the Packers, and that's why he was selected to let Aaron Rodgers know he wasn't wanted here anymore.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 02:00 pm
Did you read what McGinn said about last year's draft class and how badly he eviscerated Gute for it? He was dead wrong about every single pick they made. He even went as far as basically calling Romeo Doubs an emotional trainwreck who wouldnt be able to handle life in the NFL. I like Mcginn's courage to say things most mainsteam media jockos wont say, but his draft takes are cringeworthy at best.
LambeauPlain
May 03, 2023 at 03:21 pm
McGinn, since he left the fading JS sports page (and a bit while there), has needed sensationalism and bold proclamations to sell his services. Always enjoyed reading him, but got a kick out of his "scout for another team" supplying his "inside information".
Once in awhile he'd use a named source...once in a great while.
Untylu1968
May 03, 2023 at 07:41 am
On another note, it was nice to see AR having a good time at the Knicks game last night! It looks like he's connecting with the young players from the JETS. OTAs must be a good place to start that bonding process??
RCPackerFan
May 03, 2023 at 09:46 am
"It looks like he's connecting with the young players from the JETS. "
And then the Jets sign Randall Cobb lol.
LambeauPlain
May 03, 2023 at 03:29 pm
Gonna miss all those QB demands. Those are all Woody and Jets' fun and joy now.
I like and respect Cobb, but he's more like a groupie in the band now. It is approaching silliness.
greengold
May 03, 2023 at 06:22 pm
LP, right with you, my brother!!! You know that NY media is a different animal. So is that Jets fan base.
This is all flowers now. Wait till it goes sideways. I’m thinking we can take a WR next year with what is likely to be Jets high R2.
Rodgers won’t survive with that OL. The Jets just signed Billy Turner for RT.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 10:55 am
Its not about bonding for him. Its all about the narrative. His profound insecurities have turned him into a slave to the narrative. If he cared as much about winning as he does about whats said about him, the things people say about him would be a whole lot different. Instead, he acts like a clown then tries to convince people hes not a clown. He might be able to see an entire football field in once glance, but he has zero self awareness.
Untylu1968
May 03, 2023 at 11:16 am
I just love the fact that the JETS are now his little bitch. That shit is priceless..
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 11:55 am
He's finally someone else's problem and I couldn't be happier.
Rebelgb
May 03, 2023 at 04:46 pm
1000%. I liked Rodgers as a Packer. Glad I had the opportunity to follow his career.
That being said, any adult who doesnt realize Rodgers is all about the narrative and has been for a long time hasnt been paying attention. Rodgers is the Jennifer Lawrence of the NFL. Hes a hollywood diva and so cal boy who believes in his brand and his brand is his legacy, not his NFL career (though its part of it of course).
Hey thats his thing. Its his life. But Arodge is NOT a football first guy.
Oppy
May 03, 2023 at 05:01 pm
Wait a second- isn't Jennifer Lawrence the goofy girl next door type who comes off as awkward and dorky and really down to earth who just happens to be a beautiful and successful hollywood actress?
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 12:12 pm
I just read his comment how last season OROY reminds him (or have some qualities) of Davante Adams. LOL
T7Steve
May 03, 2023 at 07:51 am
If the D just plays up to the standard we expected last season (I think better), the O is strong. If the line stays healthy it's better than the Lions. Vikings and Bears aren't even close.
These facts and the new additions will allow J. Love to manage the games and win some with surprises.
I wouldn't be far out of line predicting 11 wins or more. Look how a good offense made a 7th round (last pick) rookie QB look last season on the 49ers. Love's a FIRST rounder and going to cook with this O.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 08:36 am
"If the D just plays up to the standard we expected last season (I think better), the O is strong. If the line stays healthy it's better than the Lions. "
This has been an offense under LaF predicated on minimizing possessions, controlling the ball, and scoring more efficiently than the opponent, but that really requires scoring TDs and not settling for FGs. They had two years where they were really good in the red zone (2nd in 2019, first in 2020) and the last two years where, well, not so much (18th in 2021, 23rd in 2022)...people can argue over how much 12 had to do with that, but that's with defenses we haven't always been very happy with.
There's going to be a lot of pressure on Love to sustain drives and control the ball, and I think he really needs to pick up that red zone conversion rate. This is an offense that should translate well to a toolsy QB who is learning on the job, if he doesn't throw the ball to the other team. You point to the defense, and if they're in the bottom third this year, it will be hard on 10.
PeteK
May 03, 2023 at 10:08 am
Poor 21 and 22 coincides with the O line having injuries and new players.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 10:36 am
Perhaps.
Still gotta score 7s to win.
T7Steve
May 03, 2023 at 10:14 am
Yes. It all starts with the lines (on both sides of the ball).
We DO have to get back to calling it the "GOLD ZONE". Make the new Kickers a moot point. All they'll have to do is hit extra points and keep kickoffs inbounds a get touch backs when they want them.
Since'61
May 03, 2023 at 07:55 am
I Love Bak's comments especially the last sentence. "We have a young team that's hungry and people are already counting out. Great! Harness that and take it and use that. Use that as an FU mentality all year. I think that should be the first thing we do moving forward." That is exactly the correct attitude that every player on the team needs to have. The coaches should bring that attitude and promote it as well.
The comments from the scouts or alledged pundits is exactly why I don't pay attention to any of them. It doesn't matter what they know or say about players. The only results that matter to to them are their TV ratings, or the number of clicks their comments receive. No one ever calls them out for their comments about a player 2 or 3 seasons down the road.'' Following any of them is a complete waste. of time.
The Packers are definitely in a youth movement. The question is will the FO and the fans have the patience it takes to enable a youth movement to succeed.
There are only 3 players still on the roster from the TT era; Bak, Clark and Aaron Jones. Maybe the Packers will yet bring back Mason Crosby but I doubt it. Basically a total roster turnover since Gute has become the GM.
It should be fun to watch, we just need to manage expectations and keep our sense of humor as this team evolves. Great job as always Al. Thanks, Since '61
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 08:17 am
"There are only 3 players still on the roster from the TT era; Bak, Clark and Aaron Jones."
The thing to remember about Clark is that he is still only 27 and doesn't turn 28 until October and is about to start his 8th season. He was drafted at 20 years old!!! Aaron Jones was drafted a year after Clark and is a year older.
T7Steve
May 03, 2023 at 11:22 am
Easy to keep our "sense of humor" as long as we still own DA-BEARS!
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 12:26 pm
We will. It is not that ACR owns bears, it is Packers that owns bears...
stockholder
May 03, 2023 at 08:02 am
Resetting or Rebuild it’s Not All in!
The odds makers are putting us with the bears.
The Bears! What a Fall from grace.
And if Jordan Love Fails like all the other Bears.
We're screwed for years. Giving these guys 3 years.
The security blanket is Gone. Transition is in.
Weapons are only as good as your QB.
And other teams have them too.
But how Gutey passed on Branch for Reed, is Corrupt.
Branch now gave the odds to the Lions. A guy we needed.
A position we needed more than WR.
Driver was a weapon. Taken in the seventh rd.
And thats the Beauty of the later picks.
IMO- Reed will never Balance out the what was there.
And lets just forget Amos now.
You wanted the packers to change. Take your medicine.
Sink or swim says it all. And with No cash for help.
I doubt MLF play calling can help the obvious.
The quotes are great. Especially the positive.
But I can’t help but think that taking the BPA
Was a better way to the future.
Especially; when Gutey had the means to get the higher rated player.
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 08:28 am
"And if Jordan Love Fails like all the other Bears.
We're screwed for years. Giving these guys 3 years."
If Jordan Love fails then the Packers are picking at the top of R1 next year. That means we can probably draft Caleb Williams or Drake Maye (I prefer Maye as is younger and I think has more upside).
"But how Gutey passed on Branch for Reed, is Corrupt.
Branch now gave the odds to the Lions. A guy we needed.
A position we needed more than WR."
What is this love affair with Branch? The Packers drafted Anthony Johnson Jr in R7, a player a lot of people predicted would go in R4/5. FYI Branch is an average athlete who I think will be exposed a lot in the NFL. Anthony Johnson Jr is an elite level athlete and has more upside especially since he is only in his 2nd year as a safety.
"Especially; when Gutey had the means to get the higher rated player."
Who says he didn't draft mainly the highest graded players on his board? Oh right you read a few draft things from "experts" and think you know everything about the draft.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 09:39 am
Well said. The Lions are planning to use Branch as a nickel S for a reason. That’s predominantly what he was in college too. He may be a good one in that role, but that’s not a role typically valued as a first rounder, it’s certainly not the pundits’ vision of an all around S and it’s not the one that is our biggest need. In fact it might be the one S role we don’t have a problem with.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 09:49 am
When is a S not a S? When he's your nickel CB.
stockholder
May 03, 2023 at 09:59 am
Versatility is what the packers Like.
Do the Lions have him in the right spot?
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 10:02 am
Doesn't matter the position he plays. Branch is an average athlete and usually those guys ceiling is a low end starter, QB (pocket passers especially) and P/K being exceptions. Most average athletes in the NFL end up as backups.
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 10:00 am
As a nickle CB Branch will be exposed even more with his athletic ceiling.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 10:33 am
I think big slots will eat his lunch.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 01:55 pm
This is the Lions we're talking about.
Their rich history of defensive backs includes Don Doll, Jim David, Dick LeBeau, Yale Lary, blah blah blah.
Two of their best, Dick LeBeau and Night Train Lane, were not drafted by the team. So that pretty much leaves Lem Barney as evidence that the Detroit organization knows how to draft good DBs. That was over 40 years ago.
Would you like to know what they've done over the last several years?
Jeff Okudah was the #3 pick in the draft a few years ago. They took the great Joe Kerby in the third round last year. Okudah and Kerby were part of the league's worst defense last year. They took Teez Tabor early in the second round in 2017 and dumped him after two years.
If there is any evidence that the Detroit Lions have some insight into what a good DB is, I'm not seeing it. The average yards per attempt against them was 7.9, worst in the league. Branch is going to change that?
jannesbjornson
May 03, 2023 at 10:56 am
Would have still taken Tillman with the two pick. Maybe they thought Doubs is the same guy? They were fortunate Kraft was there in the third. So some luck. The All-in bullshit was 2019-22 and keeping the veterans. No TEs drafted in 2021-22.
The issue was lack of quality depth at the OT spot. The injuries to Bhak with retreads filling the RT was the achilles heel for the Lombardi. I didn't mind Love because I watched Mt. West games and he could throw the deep out. My perpetual beef with the 2020 draft was if Love, then move picks to get Higgins and secure the double threat for the redzone. These guys are always a draft behind. Hoping Rhyan can show his stuff and fight for a starting job. The opponents know they can Bullrush the interior and Nijman is no match against Hendrickson. The Purple bagged Davenport to team with ZaDarious and Hunter.The right flank is still a concern. Quite a few BPA went before Van Ness. I would have traded down. Not a big Branch guy to begin with. He would be a redundancy at nickel safety. I would take Love over Fields. Our weakest link is Barry. If LaFleur calls another Dbl. reverse, outside zone on 4th and a Yard, then you know we are in a world of hurt.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 10:59 am
Were the Chiefs all-in when they won the super bowl with 8 rookies playing prominent snaps (an NFL record btw) after dumping Ty Hill and Honey Badger? But you know who was all-in? The Eagles were and they still fricken lost. People like you see to think signing all the free agents and trading a bunch of draft picks somehow guarantees a super bowl. It does not. All it guarantees is a maxed out salary cap and less draft picks.
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 12:30 pm
You do not even knows what word "corruption" means. C'mon man. Try to have some joy in your life...
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 08:06 am
The one theme I see, looking back at the draft, is that QB aside, the Packers avoided high floor low ceiling types completely. Some of that may be due to the way the draft fell, but we consistently took players with great athletic traits who are currently less polished/experienced than other options. We also seem to believe that a down year is less indicative of talent than the existence of an up year.
One could look at this as a RAS over play approach, but I see it as trying to build a foundation to get better over a large class of players. The odds are that these won’t all prove successful, but I think those that do have a chance to be good enough to elevate the team. I do think the initial experience might be more bumpy this way, but now is a good time to work out such kinks and identify and polish a strong young core.
I am not just looking forward to seeing what LaFleur’s offense looks like. I’m very interested to see how camp and preseason changes. Will we now emerge better prepared, will performance result in more opportunities more rapidly, be more truly open?
We may not contend this year but we should see a lot of growth in players and how they are used I believe. I’d rather see an imaginative offense struggle through growing pains than an old, slow one gradually strangling itself through predictability and caution interspersed with the odd long heave.
I’m not sure about the D. The pass rush is deeper again, as is the DL room, but I’ve yet to figure out how the new types fit together into a coherent DL rotation and solution. Will we be better against the run? The same is true at S. I personally think Moore was picked up to play, so how does he fit? I’m not seeing any player that can be an ILB, S and CB in one body (including Amos if resigned), though I didn’t see much in the draft that could either. If the scheme still demands that, I still don’t see a solution.
Kicker: Bissacia called that one. He’s clearly far and away out most knowledgeable guy on ST matters. He also evidently has personal knowledge of this kid. If we are not going to trust him in that circumstance, we probably have bigger issues. So I’m going to let that one prove itself.
As to Clifford, I really didn’t get that. On reflection though, if we wanted a rookie to start if needed, he’s more ready than most in this draft, arguably all but the first two taken. I don’t know how helpful that is, because ready and not very good in NFL terms is of questionable value, but if Love got a knock, if I wanted a rookie to come in and not lose things, Clifford is as good a bet as there was this year. I am, however, not convinced he would do better than Etling in that capacity, but that’s what preseason is for. Both seem smart. We certainly needed more than one going into camp.
If scouting was a less subjective and more scientific process, the draft would be a lot duller. I do remember once being told that there are casual impressions and deep analysis. The former tend to be the first step and later validation, but the latter is what really counts along with background and personality work. The deeper work seldom gets discussed/disclosed. What is available is impressions. I note that the work in Reed specific to the Packers got a rare mention when Sullivan referenced their own timings/testing.
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 08:31 am
"the Packers avoided high floor low ceiling types completely."
I agree with this assessment. High floor low ceiling seems like wasting picks. I know a lot of people were really high on Michael Mayer, I never was because I feel like he has hit his ceiling. You want to have players who can improve a lot as a professional vs only being slightly better than they were in college.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 10:05 am
I agree: I think of "high-floor low-ceiling" picks as the kinds of things that nearly complete teams do in the late 20s to shore up holes with "plug-and-play" guys.
splitpea1
May 03, 2023 at 02:15 pm
I don't. I think there's a middle ground here, like "higher floor and moderate ceiling", or something like that. There's nothing wrong with plug and play guys; you need them because everyone can't be a superstar, and even if they could, no team could afford to pay them all. You're going to need lots of solid, reliable players mixed in with a couple of superstars if you ever expect to win a title.
You're obviously taking chances with every player you draft, but the ratio between previous production and NFL potential was rather wide this time for a few of these players. Translated to Wisconsin-ese, it seems that Gute took the Gorman Thomas/Rob Deer approach to the draft: either he's going to hit it big, or screw himself into the ground swinging for the fences.
DoubleJ
May 04, 2023 at 07:08 am
Guys with a moderate ceiling isn't a bad thing. A lot of them you will find later in the draft. They can make good depth of above-average players. I think of Runyan as that type of player. Would I want 5 of them along my OL, no. But if both guards are players like him you can survive. However, you can also take guys with high ceilings and see if they hit that high. Some players with high ceilings never get to that point and end up being above-average players and that isn't bad either.
PeteK
May 03, 2023 at 10:16 am
Or some players (Mayer) with high ceilings continue with that on the next level because they had experience.
DoubleJ
May 04, 2023 at 07:10 am
IMO Mayer has already hit his ceiling. He doesn't play anywhere close to his timed speeds and lumbers down the field instead. There isn't any explosion to his movement either. After watching tape of his I see Richard Rodgers III and not the next Gronk.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 10:26 am
I think three of the first four picks are ceiling picks. They're gambling on Van Ness, Musgrave and Kraft being guys who elevate at the NFL level (and stay healthy).
"One could look at this as a RAS over play approach, "
I give BG credit for drafting WR with resumes. Reed, Wicks, and DuBose all have had productive college careers, and I think that's one of the best indicators of guys who have a chance to make it happen on the NFL stage. IMO, low volume college pass-catchers just don't pan out as often...which is why I'm a little apprehensive about Musgrave. Even DuBose has two 60+ catch seasons under his belt. The WR and TE rooms were pitifully shallow prior to the draft...there's now several bodies who have a shot to contribute. This is very much a "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" scenario.
I think the same is true of the defensive front. I love the Brooks pick--he reminds me in many ways of Javon Hargrave when he came out. Wooden seems to be a project without a clear position fit in GB, but they had a thin DL room prior to the draft and added three guys who can absorb snaps, at least on passing downs. With Ford, Slayton and Slaton providing beef, these guys bring quicks. More bodies to see what sticks, and at relatively low cost.
"The same is true at S. "
Safety is a mess. Carpenter is their ILB/S hybrid if he's ready to play, but I think he's going to end up mostly a ST-er. People point to Moore as some kind of savior--maybe he steps in and is a winner. I wouldn't bank on it. There will be vet safeties on the market, yet, through camp. They might not sign Amos, but I think they'll sign someone.
"As to Clifford, I really didn’t get that."
Maybe they think he has some mechanical flaws that can be coached up. I don't know, but I feel pretty sure that they drafted him to be a steadying influence in the QB room for Love. It sounds funny that they would draft a rookie to stabilize a fourth-year player, but all Clifford's strengths seem to be between his ears and in terms of his approach and leadership.
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 12:45 pm
dobber,
"People point to Moore as some kind of savior--maybe he steps in and is a winner. I wouldn't bank on it."
Tavarius Moore is started as S and later push out of his position, become injured and finally released. He was good at safety, but 9ers had needs and moved him to ILB/slot, were he did not play well. After he heal he played mostly as STer. Than they cut him. So, it is not that strange to think how Packers see him as "veteran" safety.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 11:23 am
"""The one theme I see, looking back at the draft, is that QB aside, the Packers avoided high floor low ceiling types completely""""
I would add to that the theme of selecting players based on their junior year performance rather than their senior year. Just like Love, who had an awesome junior year and then fell off as a senior. It's something I'm going to pay a lot more attention to next year.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 12:50 pm
I think I mentioned a willingness to see talent despite fluctuations from year to year. It’s the old, if imperfect, adage, that if you can do it once, you can do it again.
If a player can perform well over a sustained period, the question becomes not whether he can, but what prevented him from doing so after? The answer is often that it wasn’t him, or that it was a correctable issue, not a lack of talent. In general terms, I agree, provided that analysis is through and convincing.
CheesedDeadHead
May 03, 2023 at 02:46 pm
"I would add to that the theme of selecting players based on their junior year performance rather than their senior year. Just like Love, who had an awesome junior year and then fell off as a senior."
Well that often is how you get the best value as long as the final year drop in productivity can be explained. 14 days ago I bought META stock because so many had given up and driven it's price down. After the earnings call I'm up 13% in 2 weeks. Excellent value. I would bet if Musgrave, Kraft and Reed had continued their previous trajectory/not gotten hurt we would have been lucky to get 1 by the 42nd pick.
T7Steve
May 03, 2023 at 11:40 am
"gradually strangling itself through predictability and caution". Nailed it CW!
Pet peeve from the last couple seasons. Average fans could predict what play was about to happen more than 75% of the time, Just based on personnel and tendencies. Throw in Rodger's tendencies and opposing DCs read us like a book.
At least we'll have the advantage for the first couple of games. After that, it will tell us how MLF's plays work.
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 08:11 am
Al, on spot as always.
Regarding draft - first and foremost many here were calling for trade of David Bakhtiari in package with ACR to Jets. I believe his remarks
about "they" has merrit. When you sit at table with "them" they are oposite side. "They" are not your parents, brothers or sisters. "They" are not your family. After you sign your contract, "they" may become "us". And that is natural position Bakh have. As he said "it is how it is!" Bakh also said that, if Packers will want him further the line, they will need to restructure his contract. The tone of the statement was as he is willing to talk about that with them. I hope he will finish his career as Packers.
I hope all of players on Packers roster will be all pros, but I do not have that expectaion. History teaches us that it is not fisible for many reasons.
I also believe Reed and Love will click quickly as they have one important life situation similar. Both lost their fathers when they were young. That bond might mean a lot for them.
Regarding kicker, I have to admitt that every player Rich Bisaccia ask for and get them showed that he has good eye to pick adequate players.
Once upon my time I was trying to keep everything under my control in my life. When I found that this task is impossible and found the reason behind that urge, I solved the issue. It was very simple -
I embraced idea that unknown is so thrilling and that you have to accept constant changes and to learn how to navigate through the changes. (Who is interested in read introduction of the book from Bach: "Illusions".)
Thank you Al for another nice piece...
PeteK
May 03, 2023 at 10:26 am
Love your last paragraph, so true.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 10:42 am
"I also believe Reed and Love will click quickly "
A young QB's best friend is a WR who runs good routes and who can regularly get open off the snap.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 12:18 pm
Throw it to the guys getting open. Who they are doesn’t matter. If they keep doing that, target them. It may change from game to game, matchup to matchup, but it’s all that matters. Read that and one is well on the way to winning.
TxFred
May 03, 2023 at 08:16 am
Good to see no more self-serving hero ball crap. Run the ball. Make the defense so fucking tired tackling Dillon & Jones they have call time out, just to catch their breaths. Move the chains.
Untylu1968
May 03, 2023 at 08:24 am
One major loss for the Packers offense this coming season will be their predictably! I'm no football genius, but I could guess the Packers next play, especially on third and short, with way too much regularity. I would have to believe the opposing D also knew what was coming. I see a Love led offense, putting more points on the board with way fewer three and outs, which in turn will make our D much more effective. The Pack will surprise many this year, and I can't wait!! GPG!
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 08:35 am
Aaron Rodgers hero ball over the last 6 years got old real quick. I don't think it is surprising that in 2020 the offense was at its best and that was closer to what LaFluer wanted to do offensively. Had more running plays under center and less hero ball. Fast forward to 2021 and the O looked worse as it was more out of the shotgun and more hero ball.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 11:08 am
It wasnt as much as the defense knew what was coming. Its that they knew they could line up a certain way and knew exactly what Rodgers would audible to based on how they were lined up. Defensive coordinators were toying with him and he was too damn stubborn to adjust. Remember, he even said during training camp "Im gonna play the way I always have." This league is adapt or die and Rodgers is too proud of himself to even consider adapting. Even egomaniac alcoholic John Elway was smart enough to let Mike Shanahan steer the ship in Denver and he was rewarded handomely with 2 super bowls on his way out the retirement door. That couldve been Rodgers. But he would rather lose his way than win anyone else's way. I was the biggest Rodgers fan alive but he ripped my heart out repeatedly with his Lambeau-sized ego. I'll never forgive him for that.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 12:41 pm
Certainly one problem has been predictability of targets. Rodgers’ statistically clear preferences out of formations are known and compiled and changed little. Teams could and did bet not just on audibles, but where the ball would go.
When we started rolling out Cobb and Lazard as a constant core and not varying personnel much at all, that became more significant because they weren’t fast enough to threaten many big plays, so Adams/Watson/Doubs could be multiply covered and still have more closer for the shorter pass/run. Teams had long figured that out. That’s what we saw in Adams’ last game for us. The ball still went to him as other open players were ignored. They simply had him and us figured out.
Last year teams just focussed on Doubs and then Watson. Different faces, same principle, same effect once they figured who the threat was out and that the offense hadn’t really changed. Sit on the run/short pass and rush hard, blanket the threat, wait for the high probability throw, sweeper coverage if that was an exception. Result, impotence on O. No moving parts, predictable proclivities, inability to change/adapt in game or between them.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 01:51 pm
Yes there is a lot to be said for that. But Rodgers relied so heavily on presnap reads, especially with the rpo stuff. Teams learned his rules and exploited them ad nauseum as well as accurately predicting who he would throw to. Its no coincidence Love looked better than him when he played vs the Eagles. Its not that Rodgers cant still play. Its that he refuses to adapt and kept pigeonholing this offense. Even when defensive coordinators publicly talk about knowing exactly what hes gonna do, he just keeps doing the same old thing. Insert Einstein's Definition of Insanity here. Im genuinely surprised Saleh even wanted him considering Saleh knows better than anyone just how predictable he has become.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 02:46 pm
I think it’s a case of both trends combining to allow teams to better utilize their defensive resources. For a while now, defenses have been visibly anticipating. As long as it worked they were not going to stop.
Vachio
May 03, 2023 at 08:30 am
DBAK is always entertaining.
It's tough to know when scouts are giving honest opinions and when they're spreading disinformation to see if they can get a guy they like to slide. And some of them just say some inane stuff, making you wonder if they even watched the player play. Comments about Van Ness having poor play strength and Reed lacking agility were among those...
stockholder
May 03, 2023 at 10:16 am
I'm wondering how long it will take for D-Bak
to join Lazard and Cobb.
The Jets just signed Cobb.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 10:58 am
Wonder who he will keep off the field. A Lazard Cobb core is not going to frighten anyone this year either.
jannesbjornson
May 03, 2023 at 01:42 pm
A 4.37 slot guy or Randall at age 32 ?
Ron61
May 03, 2023 at 08:36 am
I’m 62 so I have seen the bad years prior to this 30 years of QB excellence. It is a guesstimate of rookie QBS at NFL level. Year after year we watch top rookie QBS fail in the NFL. I truly hope Jordan is worth the huge gamble BUT history shows us we were blessed switching from Favre to Rodgers. We cannot expect him to be Rodgers so lower your expectations.
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 09:17 am
I don't think people are expecting another Rodgers. It is absurd to think that GB would get 3 HOF QBs in a row. All Love has to do is be a top 12 QB and this team can be a winner and Super Bowl contender.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 09:53 am
There are certainly some around here who won't accept anything less than generational talents at any position.
Bitternotsour
May 03, 2023 at 06:45 pm
Dobber, generational quarterbacks are our birthright.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 12:00 pm
What I'm expecting is the offense to resemble the 49ers, where all the qb has to do is his job and the offense will thrive. This is why I keep saying it doesnt matter how "great" Love becomes in a vacuum. What does matter is how great this offense can be with Love under center running MLF's Shanahan-influenced offense.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 09:28 am
We weren’t expecting Rodgers to be a hall of famer when he took over either. That he grew into one exceeded even the hopes of his boosters back then.
PeteK
May 03, 2023 at 10:30 am
Learning for 3 yrs certainly improves chances of success.
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 11:11 am
"We cannot expect him (JL) to be Rodgers so lower your expectations."
I never ever wanted or expected Jordan Love to be ACR. I want and hope him to be excellent QB for Packers, but to be first and foremost Jordan Love! This is the first thing you have to achieve before you run for success. To be true yourself. Any copy is just pale picture of original!
Ron61
May 03, 2023 at 08:50 am
I believe the Packers QB will be Sean Clifford the four year starter at Penn State and 2022 ROSE BOWL CHAMPION! Please watch his highlight reel. Excellent stats with few picks. He has a good arm with touch, good awareness and he can run. Solid career at major league college Penn State when Compared to Jordan’s two year starter at tiny Utah State. Jordan decided to leave.school early after junior year posting 20 tds vs 17 ints against mostly weak small schools.
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 09:19 am
If Jordan Love was in the 2023 NFL draft he probably was QB1 at worst QB2. 2023 overall was a pretty weak QB draft. Thinking that Clifford will be the new QB is laughable. Clifford might end up being a good backup but that is his ceiling.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 09:46 am
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but Clifford was, despite his high profile, a consensus 7th/UDFA for a reason. He was no overlooked gem.
MainePackFan
May 03, 2023 at 11:48 am
Then again, as has been established throughout history and this article, the consensus gets it wrong a lot. I do have to say after watching his tape and listening to his interviews, Clifford is starting to grow on me.
That's not to say I think he will beat out Jordan, but I do think he has the potential to be a solid backup QB even as a rookie.
Coldworld
May 04, 2023 at 10:09 am
That appears to be their hope. A cheap back up with maybe enough upside to trade for something later. He’s a guy they hope won’t lose games if he has to be inserted and can be ready fast enough to be another option to Etling.
Tundraboy
May 03, 2023 at 08:54 am
Superb installment this week Al. Thank you!. I'm pretty pumped up now and I think Bakhtiari's comments really were encouraging.
This is going to be a great camp for all of us.
Lphill
May 03, 2023 at 09:16 am
not much being said here about the signing of the number 1 edge prospect a year ago , Brenton Cox Jr.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 09:52 am
If you don’t click “show all” then maybe
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 11:14 am
Well he was dismissed from 2 major programs who both tend to ignore bad behavior from their prized recruits. We'll see if he can grow up in a hurry but I wont be holding my breath. Bombed the combine too by running a 4.82 40 yd dash. This guy went undrafted for a multitude of reasons. He'll be lucky to make the practice squad.
Lphill
May 03, 2023 at 12:20 pm
he got arrested for marijuana possession and dismissed for punching a player during a game ,the thing in his favor is he had a good GPA he just needs to mature kinda like Quay Walker.
HarryHodag
May 03, 2023 at 09:45 am
Did I miss something or are the Packers running with a practice squad UDFA and a so-so rated draft pick behind Jordan Love?
Do you feel comfortable with that?
Not having a veteran, an experienced veteran, behind Jordan Love is like driving 120 mph on a wet road and saying nothing is going to happen.
RCPackerFan
May 03, 2023 at 09:50 am
I am guessing they will watch Clifford through the minicamps and see how they feel he looks and may then go with a veteran at that point.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 10:07 am
We aren’t going to get a veteran who many want or who still can play at a level we’d be comfortable starting. We might get a more tested career back up or an aging former starter willing to play cheap. Those don’t need camp and can be signed late, often after cut downs. The option remains but would probably only be needed if there’s injury or Clifford isn’t good.
RCPackerFan
May 03, 2023 at 10:17 am
True. I can see them possibly bringing one in before training camp. Or do that after the preseason games start.
I don't know who all is available outside of Matt Ryan. Which he maybe waiting for a job that a starting QB gets injured.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 10:31 am
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/quarterback/
Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's not a lot of meat left on that bone.
RCPackerFan
May 03, 2023 at 10:40 am
Thanks Dobber.
Not a lot left, but we aren't looking for a starter. We are looking for a backup that could help mentor Love and could come in, if needed to keep the offense rolling.
On that list I think Wentz, Ryan would be my top 2 choices. Probably Bridgewater would be my 3rd choice.
Ryan to me would make a lot of sense if he would be good with being in that role. He is older, but has been with LaFleur before. I think he would be a good presence for Love.
barutanseijin
May 03, 2023 at 05:36 pm
I’d want to keep Wentz far away from my young quarterbacks lest they unconsciously pick up some of his terrible tendencies.
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 09:59 am
It's entirely possible they roll with Etling as the #2 and Clifford as #3/PS stash, but I think they'll find a journeyman backup to sign, yet. They've been attached to Mason Rudolph and Carson Wentz prior to the draft.
From my perspective, if Love gets hurt and misses 6 games or so, it's as much about having someone out there who can play competently enough to allow the offense to still run--a Brett Hundley who was totally inept doesn't allow the young pass-catchers to continue to grow.
Coldworld
May 03, 2023 at 10:17 am
I think your last paragraph nails their intended evaluation over the summer.
Johnblood27
May 03, 2023 at 10:27 am
This is Love's 4th year.
He IS the veteran.
Get used to it.
He is our engine and if he fails the team fails, backup vet or rook.
Reality, it can be exhilarating!
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 11:28 am
See, I have the 180 degree opposite view. We should have a team that's strong enough to compete even if the 3rd string QB is playing. I'm less concerned with how Love plays than how the people around him play.
RCPackerFan
May 03, 2023 at 11:40 am
Also, isn't it about developing the young guys? Having a better backup QB will help the young WR's out a ton when they have an understanding of what is going on.
Coldworld
May 04, 2023 at 10:28 am
I think Dobber nailed it when he said the key was having a QB able to stay in the pocket when appropriate and go through his reads and make throws sufficient to give the skill players valid opportunities and experience.
At the moment they are going to see if they trust Clifford or Etling to do that. If they can’t, then we will get a vet. However, if Love is out for a long period, don’t expect that vet to carry us to great heights. Firstly the options won’t be great and in our price range particularly. Secondly, the goal here is to function and grow not simply get a worse pick.
We seem to forget all the years Favre had a washed up McMahon and Deadly Doug. Doug was great for Favre, very smart and would play within any system as long as the ball didn’t have to travel more than ten yards. Clifford and Etling have better arms than that.
If they can keep cool heads and not scramble or throw in panic then they will do as much as a vet probably. A well coached team can do a lot with that. Not win it all, but grow and compete. Look at last year’s Mr Irrelevant for an example and how that compared when he wasn’t there.
Untylu1968
May 03, 2023 at 10:30 am
Somewhere, Brock Purdy says, hold my beer...🍻
dobber
May 03, 2023 at 10:32 am
I think Brock Purdy was a mirage.
I hope SF buys in on him hard.
BirdDogUni
May 03, 2023 at 02:53 pm
Kid was a baller. Too bad he got hurt. *Pass Rush Matters!
croatpackfan
May 03, 2023 at 11:14 am
"...is like driving 120 mph on a wet road and saying nothing is going to happen."
Not if you have excellent tyres, well compose car and super talented driver who actually knows how to drive the car on the wet road!
HarryHodag
May 03, 2023 at 02:23 pm
Have you thought about a long term injury?
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 11:18 am
Im old enough to remember 5th round draft pick Mark Brunell and 6th round draft pick Matt Hasselbeck become excellent football players. Clifford might not be the sexy pick on film, but he was a 4 year captain and seems to have unbelievable toughness. He was drafted for his intangibles rather than his tools. Exactly what you want for a backup qb. The kind of guy who can come in after not seeing the field for months (possibly even years) and not be overwhelmed.
HarryHodag
May 03, 2023 at 02:23 pm
He's a rookie or doesn't that make a difference?
HarryHodag
May 03, 2023 at 02:22 pm
Apparently no one has thought about the distinct possibility of a serious injury to Love. It's football, remember? Then the Packers go against the Vikes, Lions etc. with a practice squad quarterback.
It has nothing to do with Love being #1. That's a given. It's called a contingency plan that will keep the Packers competitive during the time Love is injured.
Coldworld
May 04, 2023 at 10:36 am
If Love is out long term then the Brock Purdy strategy is about as effective as a 2023 Matt Rhyan one. The idea that there’s a veteran starter that is available and can carry to glory is as far fetched as some unknown doing so. If Love gets hurt we take the lumps, improve our picks and muddle through either way. It’s really no different than it’s been since Flynn, except we have minimal cap. If Rodgers went down we had very little behind him. Nothing changes.
LambeauPlain
May 03, 2023 at 03:45 pm
1. Clifford seems to have impressed the Packers with his football IQ during his interviews.
2. He is actually older than Love.
3. His number of football snaps of college experience exceeds Love's totals in both college and the NFL combined...and more than any journeyman QB for that matter too.
Bortles was an experienced vet and he couldn't play anymore. Packers need to see if Clifford can be an effective backup before the spend money on a journeyman who probably couldn't do much better in the role.
Leatherhead
May 03, 2023 at 04:19 pm
I would suspect that at some point between now and the beginning of the season a more experienced backup will be acquired.
Coldworld
May 04, 2023 at 10:50 am
If that happens, someone is injured or they have decided at least one of the two definitely can’t handle it.
BirdDogUni
May 03, 2023 at 10:58 am
Reed is faster than JSN. Had almost twice the production and will have the better career, IMO. JSN's hamstring injury alone probably dropped him from our board all together. I could be wrong too. JSN could come back healthier next season and blow it up, yet I still feel the 2nd round pick of Reed was the better play for several reasons.
If JSN were to blow it up, he's got all the leverage. He's supposed to be a stud 1st round draft pick and will demand top dollar. (Which if he does blow it up, will be warranted.) I see Reed in the mold of our other 2nd round pick WRs. Top tier talent without the diva built in, by taking them in the 2nd round.
I think the reason we don't go WR/TE in the first round is because of the fiasco with Javon Walker back in the day. He was a good/great WR but the diva BS broke the camel's back, and GB is determined not to go down that road, ever again...
Reed is a DAWG on offense, and we need more Dawgs, full stop.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 11:20 am
Well said.
DoubleJ
May 03, 2023 at 11:21 am
"I think the reason we don't go WR/TE in the first round is because of the fiasco with Javon Walker back in the day."
I think it was because the difference between WR1 and WR10 in a draft is a lot smaller than EDGE3 at #13 and trading up to #31 to get EDGE7.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 03, 2023 at 12:03 pm
Bingo, JJ.
MainePackFan
May 03, 2023 at 12:11 pm
Agreed Bird. I think JSN was much higher on my board than the Packers : ) The Packers were likely on Van Ness from the get go at #13.
I believe the plan of the first 3 rounds played out the way they wanted verbatim. They felt confident Reed would be there knowing it was an overreach on paper, but not on their board. I think we got some DAWGS in Van Ness and Kraft as well.
DoubleJ
May 04, 2023 at 07:17 am
Fans tend to overvalue WR in the draft. I think it is because we are hit with their information so much from the draft industrial complex "experts." I get it WR is a sexy position. However, in terms of draft value it is lower because there are a lot of good ones on day 2 of the draft. Once you get out of R1 the odds of finding a top QB, CB, EDGE/DL, or OT drops A LOT more than that for WR.
Packers0808
May 03, 2023 at 11:48 am
From what Bakh said I am so glad Rodgers and his ego are gone and can't wait see LaFleur calls and some team chemistry and coherence! GPG!
coolhand
May 03, 2023 at 01:35 pm
Here was the draft report on a former Packer receiver:
Overview
A long-limbed, sure-handed possession receiver with starter-caliber, positional traits. Lacks top-end speed and strength. As a 21-year-old, third-year sophomore entering the draft early, is still growing into his body and developing core strength. A poor man's Michael Crabtree, Adams possesses very intriguing upside to be groomed.
Strengths
Has a rangy build with good body length and big hands to palm the ball and make difficult one-handed grabs
Tracks and adjusts to the ball very well downfield
Extends outside his frame and plucks the ball out of the air
Natural hands-catcher
Terrific athlete with good leaping ability and anticipation to properly time jumps and highpoint the ball
Wins jumpballs in the red zone and shows very good hand-eye coordination to take the ball away from defenders
Exceptional production
Weaknesses
Lacks ideal functional playing strength to consistently beat the jam and can get hung up at the line
Long strider and is not sudden out of his breaks
Production was inflated from a quick-hitting, lateral passing game
That player was Davante Adams. So all of the draft reports are usually not to be taken too seriously
Swisch
May 03, 2023 at 01:45 pm
Even to the extent that draft reports are accurate, they are limited in telling us what a player can become in the pros with good coaching and hard work.
It's important for a team to learn all that it can about the past of these college guys as players and persons; then, it's important for a team to do everything it can to bring out the best potential in the guys they do bring in.
coolhand
May 03, 2023 at 01:48 pm
You are right Swisch. And the teams get to meet with the players directly and talk with their coaches so they know a lot more about the person than us as fans will ever know.
Coldworld
May 04, 2023 at 10:44 am
The difference between washing out and being a star can be razor thin. So much of it isn’t ability, though that has to be there, but what is in between the ears and how much that player wants it.
Adams was on the cusp of being cut. Other teams may well have cut or simply replaced him and taken opportunities away. We didn’t, that was luck on his part. He may never have hit the same chance had that happened. Players need snaps to grow and establish themselves.
He also was smart enough to recognize and work his buttocks off to improve his weaknesses and to keep doing so once he established himself. Nelson was another.
No scout could see that. They just had it in them. Other players can’t handle it mentally, lose focus, coast or fritter their talent away. Coaching helps, but in the end, it’s the player seizing opportunities and maximizing talent over and above that.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
May 03, 2023 at 02:49 pm
It's my wish that CCTV bannes anyone who mentions Aaron Rodgers, or the Jet's for a full 24-hours. The trade is done and over and this is a Packer webisite. The only exception being if someone comments about AR's playing time and how close we are getting to the 65% of playing time, so we get the #1 from the Jet's in 2024 vs the 2nd round pck. Enough!
Rarescope
May 03, 2023 at 11:26 pm
No doubt dude. It’s just the same old tear down people to give oneself an inflated since of importance and self worth. There see? I just did it myself and now feel better.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 04, 2023 at 01:00 am
All due respect Knock (as I usually love your posts), I reserve the right to continue trashing him. That man made a mockery of this team we all love so much. He spat in the face of everything it means to represent such a proud and historic franchise. He took the greatest privilege in American sports (being the qb for the Green Bay Packers) and abused it like it was his birthright. As long he is still playing football and relevant to the sport, I wont be shy about speaking my piece. And to be completely honest, I would happily trade that 1st rounder for a 2nd just to see him implode in New York. This team will be fine either way. I sincerely hope he gets booed off the field and ran out of New York never to be seen on an NFL football field ever again. He's a petulant weasel and he's earned every bit of criticism that comes his way.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
May 04, 2023 at 04:37 pm
Man Baloney..............I one million percent agree with everything you said! Still...I am tired of the Rodgers drama & focus. Rearview mirror baby! Let's ball out & let's get the #1 next year!
pantz_bURp
May 03, 2023 at 03:34 pm
My God, I so love the silence and the ability to move forward. Not having to pacify...
Thank you, thank you, thank you...in my eyes, the draft and upcoming season are already a success.
>^••^<
Swisch
May 03, 2023 at 05:38 pm
It is indeed addition by subtraction, a liberating relief to move on from an overwhelming presence arrogant and manipulative and domineering and stifling.
Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Handsback
May 04, 2023 at 10:49 am
Talked to a pro scout yesterday. He works on a as needed basis. He really didn't add any new information about Green Bay's draft other then to say the Packers needed to bring in a lot of bodies this year to improve and change their level of play. I asked him to expand, and he said they will have to change their style of play. That they play too soft.
The one nugget for next year is that the RBs don't have a Robinson at the top of the draft, but it's extremely deep for RBs.
Just passing on whatever nuggets are handed down.