Confessions of a Polluted Mindset -

The Weekly Packers Brain Drain from Jersey Al.

Well, wide receivers are getting PAID, aren't they? Ten NFL WRs are now making more than $24M per year with Justin Jefferson, Amon-Ra St. Brown, AJ Brown, and Tyreek Hill all averaging over $30M/yr. Anyone still worried about the Packers not having a true WR1? While probably not intentional, spreading the snaps among a bunch of really good receivers could save the Packers from having to dish out crazy WR contracts in the future. That carries even more importance if Jordan Love goes from very good to great in a few years - more bags of money will be needed there.

Speaking of Love...

 

 

Evidently, the kicker competition got ramped up yesterday, with the three (yes they still have three) kickers going head to head in simulated two minute drill situations and then with the entire team trying to distract them while they tried 50+ yds kicks. Carlson came out in front overall, and I still expect him to be the kicker when the Packers open the season in Brazil. But I'm totally onboard with putting a little heat on him with camp competition.

CJ Stroud is evidently a big Matthew Stafford fan, saying he thinks Stafford would have won a few more Super Bowls with teams Aaron Rodgers failed to do so with. Now, I'm not sure how to interpret exactly what he means (I doubt he thinks Stafford is a better QB), but if he's saying that Stafford would have just run the offense or would have just hit the open receiver instead of trying to force the ball to his favorite WR at key moments in playoff games, I could agree with that. However, the Packers defense gave up tons of points in Rodgers' playoff losses. 

 

 

Bo knows football - I'm staying on the Bo Melton breakout train and a report from yesterday's practice emboldens me even more. (Caveat: I really think it will be Wicks, but that would be less of a surprise, so Bo it is!)

 

Former NFL GM Mike Tannenbaum says he would take Jordan Love over any NFL QB not named Mahomes for reasons of youth, ability and "limitless future." "You give me Jordan Love, I'm set for ther next decade..."

 

 

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__________________________

"Jersey Al" Bracco is the Editor-In-Chief, part owner and wearer of many hats for CheeseheadTV.com and PackersTalk.com. He is also a recovering Mason Crosby truther.  Follow Al on twitter at @JerseyalGBP

__________________________

17 points
 

Comments (145)

Fan-Friendly This filter will hide comments which have ratio of 5 to 1 down-vote to up-vote.
barutanseijin's picture

June 05, 2024 at 06:31 am

Hard to know exactly what Stroud means without more elaboration than what we get from a twitter post. I’d guess it means a couple things: Stroud was and maybe still is a Rams fan and that Stroud sees himself as playing more like Stafford than Rodgers.

Without guessing, all i can say is that people are talking about Rodgers as if his career is over and that people outside Wisconsin don’t necessarily see Rodgers as “the most talented QB ever” or even as the best or most talented of his era.

6 points
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Leatherhead's picture

June 05, 2024 at 11:02 am

The author talks about the defense giving up tons of points in Rodgers playoff losses.....6 in the 2021 loss. 31 in 2022, but 14 were directly set up by turnovers. We held Brady to a passer rating in the 80s and got 3 picks.

In Seattle in 2014, we got a multitude of turnovers that were not converted to points.

Here's what Stroud meant: Better quarterbacking would have given us more titles. I think Rodgers was a helluva QB, but did he really elevate in the big games? I don't think so.

8 points
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mnbadger's picture

June 05, 2024 at 12:00 pm

Totally agree with LH's comments.
Also, I wish the author would have added a footnote regarding Mike Tannenbaum's illustrious career drafting great players and only singing great free agents.
I put more stock in most of the posters here about talent evaluation than I do Mike Tan is all I'm saying.
GPG!

1 points
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Tundraboy's picture

June 06, 2024 at 01:19 am

Yeah Mike T is not the guy I would go to on this.

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cdoemel's picture

June 05, 2024 at 05:35 pm

He’s a puffed up, overpaid kid runnin his mouth. Doesn’t he have an agent? Or a mother? To say stfu?

-2 points
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Cheezehead72's picture

June 05, 2024 at 06:31 am

The number 1 reciever is the reciever who is open. That is the way to run a football team. It is best to have 5 WRs that can line up anywhere and run all the route trees. I am glad to see the Vikings have to pay JJ that much money. JJ is good but I do not see any player other than a QB counting that much against the cap.

They need to get rid of one of the kickers. They are using 3 percent of the roster on one position that we should have only 1 player. We know it will be Carlson so keep Joseph and put him on the PS later.

7 points
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mrtundra's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:16 am

I'm not so sure I'd want a viking Kicker/reject backing up Carlson. Keep Podlesny and develop him on the PS.

1 points
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Cheezehead72's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:42 am

I agree I do not like a Viking reject but he does have experience. Having 3 on the roster is not smart. We could use that spot to find a diamond in the rough

3 points
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BradHTX's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:48 am

Though has to be said that the Packers having a Vikings reject on their roster is a weird reversal of the usual pattern of the universe. Normally it’s the Vikings with a couple dozen former Packers on their roster.

1 points
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dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:51 am

It seems like every team has a second kicker stashed away on the PS these days. I don't care if he's a former Vike...he wants a paycheck and, when called on, he'll be trying to produce. If he beats Podlesny (that name is an autocorrect nightmare!), more power to him. If not, goodbye and good luck.

5 points
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mnbadger's picture

June 05, 2024 at 12:02 pm

Or, have them try out and keep the best one, no matter where he came from.
Maybe Joseph has taken the hint that he needed to get better or get another job, so he committed to getting better?
Try them out, make a decision and move on.
GPG!

1 points
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cdoemel's picture

June 05, 2024 at 05:35 pm

Good take

0 points
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NickPerry's picture

June 05, 2024 at 06:33 am

"CJ Stroud is evidently a big Matthew Stafford fan, saying he thinks Stafford would have won a few more Super Bowls with teams Aaron Rodgers failed to do so with."

Stroud also said Eli Manning had a better career than Rodgers. If you base it entirely on Superbowl's I suppose that's true. Hey, I don't agree and the kid is entitled to his opinion. But he sure is doing A LOT of talking after just one season. Hey CJ...Remember Carson Wentz? He had ONE great season just like you have had and then fell off the face of the planet as far as QB play. You might want to shut-up a minute and see what happens with your own career first.

Players like this make me appreciate Jordan Love all the more. Love is just focusing on his team and getting better. He's not on a podcast ranking QB's. Stroud saying this made the Texans at the Jets in week 9 MUST see TV. Something tells me that Jets D is going to meet at the QB (Stroud) more than once that night.

10 points
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dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:54 am

"Stroud also said Eli Manning had a better career than Rodgers."

Eli benefitted from a couple of hot teams on good runs, but he has nowhere near the career body of work. By the same logic, he's a better QB than Marino. Both of those assertions are crazy talk. He's eligible for the HOF next year and nobody knows what to do with him.

7 points
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Starrbrite's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:03 am

Excellent points Dobber.

2 points
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Johnblood27's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:28 am

Manning should get into the HoF right after that other Giants SB great Jeff Hostetler...

1 points
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mnbadger's picture

June 05, 2024 at 12:03 pm

and just before the daVinci kid that beat us last year.
GPG!

0 points
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Johnblood27's picture

June 06, 2024 at 08:59 am

lil Tommy sure painted his masterpiece vs GB!

He will be the poster boy for the Boss's 'Glory Days' for decades to come!

1 points
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HawkPacker's picture

June 05, 2024 at 09:05 am

Even though Eli was a qb that won 2 super bowls, I always thought he was overrated. Certainly not in the same conversation as his brother or Rodgers for that matter.

6 points
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jvole's picture

June 05, 2024 at 09:12 am

A hot team isn't going to overcome a quarterback playing poorly. But there are stats!

Here are qbrs of both

Manning
84.1 career
87.4 playoffs

Rodgers
103.6 career
100.1 playoffs

So Eli played better in playoffs and Rodgers plays worse (but still better overall). Eli had great defenses and Rodgers had one great defense the year he won it all. If Stroud had said Mahomes or Brady, then yeah, definitely would prefer either of them in a big game over Rodgers. Rodgers isn't even close to either of them in big game composure.

3 points
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LambeauPlain's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:08 am

How would Stroud know Eli M had a better career than Rodgers? Didn't he state he ONLY watches NFL QBs Stafford and Manning?

3 points
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Leatherhead's picture

June 05, 2024 at 11:44 am

Eli won some big games that he wasn't supposed to.

1 points
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Bitternotsour's picture

June 05, 2024 at 01:15 pm

and made some ridiculous throws in really big moments - he literally seemed to have ice water in his veins

1 points
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barutanseijin's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:00 pm

Still see a lot of Big Blue 10 jerseys around here in NYC. With NY being the media center of the universe, my guess is that Eli gets into the HoF. He played his part in some tough playoff battles, rising to the level of competition, which is more than some QBs.

The same thing happens with the baseball HoF: the NY writers vote for the NY players and there are more Yankees (& maybe Mets, Giants & Dodgers also ) in the Hall than there would be if they played in Omaha.

0 points
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Bitternotsour's picture

June 06, 2024 at 09:45 am

yeah, first time caller, long time reader. If there's such a NY bias why isn't joey pepitone in the hall buddy.

0 points
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LeotisHarris's picture

June 06, 2024 at 10:41 am

Three gold gloves, 258 lifetime BA, and that whole law suit over Mantle's bat has a lot to do with it.

If we can't believe in the bias of the costal elites, what can we believe in?

3 points
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Tundraboy's picture

June 06, 2024 at 01:23 am

Yep. Isnt it wonderful to have a a talented QB who just wants to do his talking on the field.

0 points
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lou's picture

June 06, 2024 at 04:56 pm

Eli Manning during the regular season won 117 games and lost 117 games, .500 even for his career, give me a break.

0 points
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T7Steve's picture

June 05, 2024 at 06:52 am

Receivers are being paid and now the 9ers paid a running back. Looks like we're heading to 7 on 7 football for 18 game seasons. I really don't think this is on the players as much as it's on the agents trying to one up each other. A game within the game.

CJ should talk to Justin Fields about giving anyone, let alone Rodgers, bulletin board material. He may have won only as many SBs as Stafford, but he knows how to own teams including the one Stafford was on. Rodgers just set up in a new real-estate market.

0 points
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Cheezehead72's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:46 am

Yes the agents try to get the biggest contract because they make more money but it also is on the player and the owner/GM. If teams do not pay those high salaries the player or agent will not get it.

I really hope Love is willing to take less money even if that means more guaranteed money. I am looking at Love getting a five year 240 mil with 180 to 200 mil guaranteed.

3 points
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dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:55 am

With the exception of the cap contraction a couple years ago, the NFL is just printing money these days in terms of cap dollars. There's no end in sight.

3 points
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Bitternotsour's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:34 am

Blame agents. Blame players. No one is forcing the owners to take so much of the profits. I doubt any of us watches those endless commercials so that we can see Jerry Jones drinking bourbon in the owners booth. Cut the pie differently, give the players more of the take.

I think JLove is going 5 years and $280M and for a brief moment he'll be the highest paid player in the NFL. Tua will probably match that. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think Nvidia is worth $1160 a share, but I'm plenty happy I have a good sized chunk of it...

So too Jordan Love and the Packers. I may not think $280M for 5 years is what an NFL quarterback should be paid, it's just that the best young QB in the NFL is going to get that money.

2 points
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greengold's picture

June 05, 2024 at 06:57 am

Love will walk into TC with his newly announced contract. It’s “the Packer way.”

Rodgers padded his stats for Rodgers’ personal gain, not to win games. That garbage began shortly after he threw Greg Jennings under the bus, and went into overdrive after Jordy went to the Raiders. His publicly stated goal every season was to “win the MVP.” Stroud is not wrong IMO.

Al, how about, BO MELTON? We’ll see, but, he came into GB with the goods. Strong. Fast. Hands. QB’s Best Friend…

Tannenbaum is not wrong either, IMO. Been on that train for a while too.

5 points
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TKWorldWide's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:24 am

I kinda thought Melton already broke out last year.

8 points
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greengold's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:37 am

Yeah, he made some nice plays, but it was a small sampling with his limited opportunities. There were a ton of moving parts last year with all of the new bodies. It didn’t help that he was working on his recovery from a hamstring throughout TC.

We have so much talent at WR. Gutekunst truly did steal Melton two years ago.

From my draft notes:

Since 2020, Melton ranked #19 in Power 5 deep receptions (15), #2 in uncatchable targets (23). This really says it all. Taking out screens, his Catchable TGT Rate was 7th worst in Power 5 over 3 year span. His separation so good it was in 86th percentile.

He shows good understanding of how to run routes and set up defensive backs and has some spectacular plays in his tape. A 4.34 40 at the combine showed he has legit speed as well. Melton broke double-digit tackles in each of the last two seasons.

I think Melton ranked around #7 amongst that 2022 WR draft class in Missed Tackles Forced as well.

Shifty. Speedy. EXPLOSIVE. ROUTES. SEPARATION. TOUGH. YAC.

*Just saddled with a really bad QB. Steal late.

6 points
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Johnblood27's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:31 am

nice to see you back in the saddle GG, things were getting a bit stale around the ol' cheesehead area.

6 points
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greengold's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:53 am

Hey Big JB!

My thinking has been that Jordan Love was the best rookie QB to walk into 1265 Lombardi Ave. since Bart Starr. As much as I loved the greatness exhibited by Favre & Rodgers at many points throughout their careers, Love brings with him a maturity beyond his years to the game, and the Packers.

We’ll see soon enough, but this season in particular the title of an old Calbe Access TV program sums up how I think the Green Bay Packers are gonna roll: “Biker Billy Cooks With Fire.”

🔥 🔥🔥🔥🔥 (5 fireballs representing 5 Lombardi Trophies)…

For those too young to know, cable access shows were a thing, unique unto their own. IYKYK

3 points
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greengold's picture

June 05, 2024 at 09:07 am

Doubler… despite that, it’s all about potential right now. We’ll learn a lot in the very near future. JL will likely have better protection up front, a couple of great new RBs to go to in Josh Jacobs & Marshawn Lloyd, and a more seasoned group of WRs & TEs to throw to.

Offensively, the Packers could improve drastically in 2024 and beyond.

1 points
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dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:50 am

"Doubler…"

Are we playing call the ace or is jack of diamonds partner?

1 points
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HawkPacker's picture

June 05, 2024 at 11:05 am

Sounds like Sheepshead to me. Just played Monday with the boys!

1 points
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greengold's picture

June 05, 2024 at 05:02 pm

Let’s Jo JACK today!

1 points
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dobber's picture

June 06, 2024 at 07:57 am

...and coke? ...or are we still playin' cards? ;)

0 points
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KnockTheSnotOutOfYou's picture

June 05, 2024 at 03:08 pm

Good to see you again GG!

Have always appreciated your willingness to say it the way it is as you are 100% spot on about Rodger's gain, not to win games. It became obvious for many years combined with his need for constant media attention.

Kudos to you about Bo Melton as I recall you beating his drums constantly upon the Packers picking him up and he was lost on the Packers Practice Squad.

You were on the Love train but you were the caboose with me the engine. :)

1 points
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GregC's picture

June 05, 2024 at 06:58 am

I don't want to think about what happens in a couple years when the Packers have to make decisions about second contracts for Chistian Watson and Romeo Doubs. That could even happen after this year if one of them has a big season and is looking for a new deal. The Packers have four starting caliber wide receivers (Watson, Doubs, Reed, and Wicks) and two more (Melton and Heath) who are looking really good too. Something has to give. For now, I'm just going to enjoy this season. We don't know exactly how it's going to work out.

3 points
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Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:16 am

The last time I was this unworried about retaining WR talent down the road was back when we had a combination of Driver, Jennings, Nelson, Jones, Cobb (and at one point, Adams) etc on the roster.

If something has to give, there's players that should be ready to step up and fill the void with little or no drop off. It's looking like the best possible situation.

6 points
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dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:57 am

Agreed. I'm betting the Packers will end up trading depth from a position of strength in the next year or so. Can't keep and pay everyone. Not enough footballs to go around. It's the way it'll need to be.

5 points
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HawkPacker's picture

June 05, 2024 at 09:26 am

We can also draft more receivers down the road. Gute is pretty good at planning our future!

4 points
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LambeauPlain's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:35 am

It is remarkable how quickly he restocked the bare S room on the team in one off season:

McKinney, Bullard, Williams, Oladapo.

Then to reinforce his bona fides, Team Gute replenished the LB room with Cooper and Hopper to join Walker and McDuffie.

If the D can follow the O's climb up the performance ladder, buckle up! Maybe STs will finally crawl out the basement too.

3 points
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dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:56 am

A lot of luck involved, too. Remember a few years ago, they tried to restock the WR room and none of MVS, ESB, or J'mon Moore really stuck. Here's hoping S and LB look more like the recent WR restock and not the 2018 try.

4 points
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KnockTheSnotOutOfYou's picture

June 05, 2024 at 03:10 pm

I am not too worried because the stable is full. The key is for Gutey to draft one quality WR each year to replenish the talent as a WR departs for greener pastures.

0 points
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stockholder's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:10 am

If MVS and Lazard can make 10 mil a year.
Anyone can. So I doubt Gute pays them.
He'll pay a TE first.

I wouldn't pay Love yet. Seriously-
I pointed to Joe Gibbs winning SBs
with 3 different qbs.
Love's contract should not be decided
by some godlike power. He's human.
And speaking of plans .
We've seen the best, can go astray.

-13 points
2
15
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:18 am

God like power? What the hell are you on about?
There's nothing special or unusual about Love's contract negotiations.

The only thing anomalous is your disdain for anything that has to do with Love or Gutekunst.

12 points
13
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stockholder's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:25 am

Im about reality first.
Not Hype. EARN IT!

-8 points
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10
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:40 am

The arm talent is there.
The Packers have made the time investment in his development and seen the results.
He has the temperament, demeanor, and work ethic you want in a leader of a football team.
His teammates love him and play their hearts out for him.
He's UNDENIABLY a starting caliber NFL QB.
His season totals were on par with Aaron Rodgers career average stats- despite having a rough first 8 weeks.
Beyond that.. statistically, He put together a 10 game stretch to end 2023 and roll into the playoffs that very, very few QBs in the history of the NFL have ever aspired to.

WHAT. ARE. YOU. WAITING. FOR.

You are too timid, short-sighted, and entrenched in what was vs. what it is and/or will be to make the types of decisions and business moves that lead to success.

It's like a how-to book on taking a team with a bright future and make it a loser.

6 points
8
2
stockholder's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:09 am

The arm talent was with Gibbs three Qbs too.
He has, what Gibbs had, in his three too.
Yet they were Established Vets.
As long as Clements is still working on his Fundamentals.
Wait.!!! The Accuracy must match the improvements.

-3 points
1
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Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 03:25 pm

Neither Theismann, Williams, or Rypien have ever had a season in their entire careers that was as statistically prolific as the season Jordan Love had in his first year starting.

That's a fact.

And the game is not the same game it was 30-40 years ago, either.

Your babble is nothing but noise.

0 points
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2
NitschkeFan's picture

June 05, 2024 at 04:38 pm

Oppy I am not agreeing with StockH as he is a sad fellow. But as you wrote we can't compare certain stats for players today with those who played 45 years ago, especially QB. But we can compare some things and I watched plenty of Joe Theismann games.

Do not rush to tell me Jordan Love has accomplished a fraction of what Theismann had. MVP, SB champ, multiple Pro-bowls (when making the ProBowl meant something), four seasons with a QB rating in the leagues top 5, and a 77-47 record.

I think Jordan Love is going to be fine, but pump the brakes with his praise as he has barely begun his career.

PS his "statistically prolific season" was really about half a season. Over the entire season he ranked 9th in ESPN QBR, 11th by NFL QB Rating, and 12th in PFF ranking.

1 points
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Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 05:36 pm

And that whole season- in which half of it was hard lessons being learned- he was statistically on par to slightly better than Aaron Rodgers' career averages numbers.

I'm not anointing Love as a HoF shoe in; but I am pointing out that his talent level is higher than the average starting QB and Stock's continual attempts to diminish Love is unfounded and filled with crazy reaches.

Theismann's Super bowl year was a 13 touchdown season..(note: his outlier highest total on a season was in 83, at 29 TD's, which is mighty impressive.) the reason I brought up the difference is era is Stock is applying early 80's to 90's mindset to modern NFL, and it doesn't hold water. You are not going to get to, much less win a SB in today's game on a 13 passing touchdown regular season- even adjusted for the extra games.

I'm not taking away from those players, I am pointing out that Love has the talent needed to succeed and that you can't use 80's football as a roadmap to success in 2024.

1 points
2
1
NitschkeFan's picture

June 05, 2024 at 05:44 pm

"I'm not taking away from those players, I am pointing out that Love has the talent needed to succeed and that you can't use 80's football as a roadmap to success in 2024."

I can agree with you there, thanks for clarifying.

0 points
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0
Cheezehead72's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:53 am

You forget that Love worked with the Packers to save money last year. He signed the contract which paid less than the 5th year option and saved the Packers salary cap. He has shown that he is a team player. That counts for a lot. If the Packers do not sign him to a contract he will cost a lot more if he has a good year. Yes it is a gamble because h could have a poor year but that does not mean he will always have bad years.

4 points
5
1
dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:05 am

That was a win-win in this case. Love was betting on himself, knowing he'd get his 4th year at a heightened pay rate and a bolus of guaranteed money. The Packers got to tear up that fully-guaranteed 5th year that they knew they'd have to give him without ramping his cap hit up very much in 2024 and generated a little cap room in 2023 in the process.

Both sides knew the 2024 year on that deal was unlikely to happen: either Love would've fallen flat and they would've had to cut, redraft, and move on, OR he would play well enough to earn some kind of extension and they'd rewrite 2024 and beyond.

2 points
3
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stockholder's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:12 am

This isn't about saving money.
It's about earning it.
Can he finish.!!!
Thats where= He earns his pay.

0 points
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2
dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:24 am

blar
blar
blar

4 points
5
1
stockholder's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:23 am

The length of any contract is not meaningless.
It's about bonus money now.
Are you willing to throw bonus money
at a guy who hasn't earned it yet.?
I get you think; if he can replace Rodgers.
His popularity is enough.
But get your head out of your ass with such
slams, that insult my intelligence.

-1 points
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dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:49 am

It's not the bonus money that matters, it's guaranteed money. Bonus money is funny money. It's manipulated, pushed around, and adjusted to make the cap work. The guaranteed money is the rock that's hard to mess with. GMs, players, and agents have all pretty much agreed that rookie contracts hold, but that second and third contracts are flimsy things. To cling to bygone days means you're not understanding roster management of today's NFL.

"I get you think; if he can replace Rodgers.
His popularity is enough."

I think someone who struggles to string together a coherent thought trying to tell other people what they think is laughable.

2 points
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stockholder's picture

June 05, 2024 at 11:25 am

Guaranteed is also correct.

1 points
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Johnblood27's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:33 am

with a post like this, my streak of giving you a thumbs up ends at 1...

2 points
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packer132's picture

June 05, 2024 at 01:55 pm

Its time to change your moniker from Stockholder to: Stockholder with no football knowledge.

1 points
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dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 03:30 pm

I will actually defend Stockholder in that he puts as much if not more into college scouting as anyone here.

0 points
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Bitternotsour's picture

June 05, 2024 at 04:50 pm

study and comprehension are distinctly different creatures.

1 points
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dobber's picture

June 06, 2024 at 07:58 am

As a long-time college prof, I'll tell ya that these words should go on a plaque in every classroom.

0 points
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Johnblood27's picture

June 06, 2024 at 08:55 am

so... you're one of those lazy profs who didn't have the plaque up?

1 points
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stockholder's picture

June 06, 2024 at 12:27 pm

You don't need football knowledge here.
Just hate for Rodgers.

0 points
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Johnblood27's picture

June 07, 2024 at 08:48 am

I have that.

I always wanted him to do great things for my favorite team, I acknowledged his talents, but I also always wanted him to go away and be replaced.

I never liked him all the way back to his Cal days.

I am very glad that I dont have to cheer for him anymore.

1 points
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packerbackerjim's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:13 am

Spreading the ball around receivers is one way of holding down the possibility of having a WR 1 with gaudy numbers requiring a big contract. If the contracts are evenly and fairly compensated maybe someone isn’t going to bolt to get the bag elsewhere. A definite maybe.

The Halloween Thursday Night game between the Jets and Texans looks like must see tv.

4 points
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Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:24 am

I feel like the answer isn't trying to limit WR's numbers so they don't have to be paid.

The answer is spreading the ball around to build everyone up, and if a WR feels he's worth more money than the Packers are willing to pay him, he's developed a great resume' of game film because the Packers spread the ball around, and he can easily "get paid" somewhere else if that's what he wants to do.

...And the Packers thank him for his contributions to the green and gold, and remind him he can always come back later if he wants and the stars align, and we send him on his way and we're all good with it... because we have another talented, young WR who's also been getting touches who is ready to move up and take the departing player's spot.

EDIT: The primary reason you spread it around is because that's winning football. all this other stuff is secondary benefit :)

You spread the ball around and develop everyone not to limit their touches and keep them from being "worth" a high priced contract, you do it so if a guy wants to leave to chase big money- or for any other reason- you just plug in the next guy and move forward without hesitation.

6 points
7
1
TKWorldWide's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:29 am

Agreed.
When Favre lost Sharpe, he stopped trying to force the ball to the clear #1 and just started hitting the open man. The result was the Packer O became more difficult to defend. I’ll take that all day.

9 points
10
1
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:52 am

100% TK.

Sometimes immense talent can become a net negative.

3 points
4
1
Johnblood27's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:36 am

B
I
N
G
O

Football is still a TEAM game.

One player will never win a SB title, it takes a roster of complementary players with one goal in mind.

Charles Woodson - One heartbeat...

6 points
6
0
Guam's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:07 am

I wonder what Jefferson's numbers will look like this year with Darnold/McCarthy throwing to him? You need to have both ends of a pass/catch combo and I am not sure the Vikings do.

5 points
5
0
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 03:27 pm

I wonder how ugly JJ might respond if he doesn't get his numbers.

0 points
0
0
Bitternotsour's picture

June 05, 2024 at 04:48 pm

He will be able to console himself with his paycheck. $83M up front?

1 points
1
0
dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:31 am

The open market and potential drives the price.

So maybe Doubs catches 50 passes and 7 TDs in a room full of WR who catch 50 passes and 5+ TDs. GMs and agents will know the dynamic, be able to contextualize it, and know what he's worth on the open market. I don't think it changes much of anything.

0 points
0
0
Packers0808's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:49 am

My take on Stroud is you talk WAY TOO MUCH for a first year player. Could 3 or less years you may be a back up. Takes a season or so to figure to defend newbees and then see what happens. Best to be humble in this game for a while into the future especially at QB position.

10 points
10
0
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:58 am

Nobody would have bat an eye if Stroud said "if Aaron Rodgers would have had the opportunities that Brett Favre did, Aaron would have 3 or 4 rings"

"Best to be humble" doesn't really fit here. Stroud didn't brag about himself in any way. He spoke his opinion. Did he make any friends with Rodgers or Rodgers fans / Stafford haters? nope. But this isn't a matter of humility.

-6 points
1
7
Packers0808's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:25 am

Disagree, way to much lip flapping for this guy who hasn't the NFL experience to judge others at the position of other QBs and their talents.

4 points
5
1
Bitternotsour's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:45 am

In his playoff debut against the Cleveland Browns in the Wild Card round, Stroud tied the rookie record for most passing touchdowns in a playoff game and became the youngest quarterback to win a playoff game in league history as the Texans won 45–14

Stroud got HOUSTON into the playoffs. HOUSTON. I think he has plenty of ability to make judgments on others. You do it most days, and you've never been to a pro bowl.

-4 points
2
6
Packers0808's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:51 am

And exactly how do you know what I have done or not done. Still stick to my words as a former player and coach of 28 years.

1 points
1
0
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 09:28 am

Okay, now we have to ask, at what level did you play? What level did you coach? Does your playing resume' stack up against CJ Stroud's?

If it doesn't stack up, does that mean you don't have the 'right' to have an opinion on him?

-2 points
2
4
Bitternotsour's picture

June 05, 2024 at 09:49 am

Oppy, it's the internet, he coached multiple championship teams, his own playing career landed him in the hall of fame.

I played and coached too. It may have only been six man YMCA ball, but dammit, I made some plays.

Also too, "too much lip flapping"???

-2 points
1
3
Packers0808's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:48 am

No I played at Division 3 college ball, coached on High School level and helped coach for volunteer wages on small college level for Head Coach who has been a lifetime friend and we are now both retired, in fact I am 79 today. Never was a head coach, always an assistant, never wanted to have to do the duties of a head coach, too many so called adult parents to deal with. Actually they sounded a lot like you now to come to think about it. Had enough of that with teaching. There now you have my short resume.

2 points
3
1
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 03:30 pm

Packers0808, by your own admitted logic you've applied to CJ Stroud.. do you have the credentials to have and voice an opinion on CJ Stroud? That is my question.

1 points
1
0
Packers0808's picture

June 05, 2024 at 05:42 pm

Yes! 79 years of experience like I said in coaching football and teaching in the classroom. Actually more. Better question do you have the rights to question me with my football background. One thing we always told kids keep head down and be quiet about other players. And also the college team I volunteered on had two kids go on and play pro football.

0 points
1
1
Oppy's picture

June 06, 2024 at 05:16 pm

Personally, I think this idea that you can't have an opinion or express it unless you've done it longer and/or better is absolutely ridiculous gatekeeping and just a way to suppress people.

That's a great way to avoid having a discussion.

0 points
0
0
Bitternotsour's picture

June 06, 2024 at 07:28 pm

I thought about engaging, but the guy's 79 and he's still thinking about the game and posting, so more power to him. I'm kinda old, but he started watching the Packers when they were still segregated. That I may not agree with him is irrelevant. Post on 0808.

0 points
0
0
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 09:21 am

He's literally a former 2-time Heisman trophy selection finalist, and he's a starting NFL QB who has demonstrated the ability to understand NFL offensive and defensive schemes and performed at an elite level (63.9% 4,108y, 23 TD / 5 INT for 100.8 rating regular season- he posted 109.3 rating in the postseason, second only to Stafford), .. as a rookie.

That makes him infinitely more qualified than 99.999% of analysts (professional or otherwise) that publicly or privately express their opinions on NFL QB's.

Might be a tacky look to talk about your contemporaries, but he's certainly entitled to his opinions and to express them as much as any one else is, and suggesting his perceived lack of experience invalidates his opinion or hhis qualifications to publicly express them is kind of silly.

-3 points
3
6
LLCHESTY's picture

June 05, 2024 at 09:03 am

Apparently NFL fans can have an opinion but NFL QBs shouldn't.

2 points
5
3
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 09:23 am

It's crazy that people sometimes think when you become a professional sports athlete, you stop being a normal human being lol

-1 points
1
2
Coldworld's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:47 am

Anyone can have an opinion, but we should know by now that excellence on the field doesn’t always go with perceptive insight or analysis off it. In this case I don’t put much stock in it because in part he undermines his own case by, like the proverbial guy at the bar, getting carried away from a decent point into a considerably less sustainable one.

1 points
1
0
dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:33 am

He will learn not to talk just because there's a microphone in his face or he's on a zoom with a vaunted youtuber.

He'll be talking almost exclusively in cliches in short order, or he'll label himself as a problem.

6 points
6
0
Johnblood27's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:38 am

I see a peanut butter cookie in your future...

2 points
2
0
dobber's picture

June 05, 2024 at 03:31 pm

Mmmmm....peanut butter!

0 points
0
0
barutanseijin's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:27 pm

When it comes to the Stafford vs Rodgers stuff, he’s just talking as a fan. That’s OK. I also think he’s hyping up that matchup vs the Jets.

0 points
0
0
LambeauPlain's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:52 am

The salary cap is the great equalizer. The Packers have diligently and urgently climbed out of Cap Hades and did so by drafting well, going young, filling up the position rooms with young competitors & experienced team leaders/captains.

They have also had the courage to say good bye to expensive, popular, productive vets. They now have a window to invest cap in their next franchise QB and fortify both lines, what I believe is so important.

I also believe in the "Wolf Way". Ron said after arriving in Green Bay his Championship Vision was to find an outstanding QB and surround him with a top Defense.

Packers under Wolf, Ted and Brian have acquired solid D talent. Fritz Schumer was a great DC. Since then, the D coaching has been mediocre at best. If the Packers have finally solved this with Hafley and his staff, I believe the "Wolf Way"...QB & D...will have the Packers the talk of the '24 season.

11 points
11
0
Starrbrite's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:06 am

Outstanding post Lambeau.

1 points
1
0
Cheezehead72's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:11 am

Many a Steelers fan has told me that the Steelers have won six SBs where the Packers have won only 4 after I tell them the Packers have 13 championships. I counter them with you need to look at the salary cap years as the modern era of football because that was the most impactful change to increase parity and make the game more interesting.

4 points
4
0
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:12 am

"Packers under Wolf, Ted and Brian have acquired solid D talent. "

Well, they have definitely spent high draft capital on D talent.
We've got clear winners like Jaire Alexander, Kenny Clark, etc. Those are givens and clearly solid talent. But there's a lot of D talent selected by GB over the last decade that hasn't performed, too.

The question becomes, was it solid talent that was wasted by poor coaching/scheme, or was talent not as solid as they believed when they selected them?

I guess the only way to really know is look at how those defensive players who have left Green Bay performed elsewhere.

Micah Hyde and Casey Hayward are guys who clearly were talented and perhaps squandered in GB. They went elsewhere and blossomed.

In the middle / undetermined are guys like Darnell Savage- started a lot of games for the PAckers but never proved to be special players, I guess we'll find out if it was talent level or our defensive coaching/scheme that limited his production going forward.

But.. then there are guys like Jerel Worthy, Josh Jackson, Josh Jones, Oren Burks, Vince Beigel who were just busts. They did not turn out to be the players the Packers thought they were.

0 points
1
1
Johnblood27's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:39 am

Bryce Paup...

just sayin;...

2 points
2
0
LambeauPlain's picture

June 05, 2024 at 09:50 am

My opinion? A great DC can coach a good roster to be great. A mediocre DC rarely coaches a good roster to be great.

Offense is different due to the impact of the outsized QB position. Offense still wins with a team effort...but on Defense, even more so.

1 points
1
0
Coldworld's picture

June 05, 2024 at 01:56 pm

A bad coach makes players worse collectively. Arguably that was Barry as far as most DBs went at least. Other than Douglas, who was a different type of player, no DB had his career really helped and most regressed. Amos, Savage, Jaire, Stokes being fairly obvious examples. This year will do much to show if that was really Barry at least at Corner.

1 points
1
0
Johnblood27's picture

June 06, 2024 at 08:53 am

and...

Let's not forget that a very good DB coach named Gray walked away from GB because of Barry's "coaching".

1 points
1
0
barutanseijin's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:37 pm

There’s also HaHa Clinton-Dix who had a decent year or so and then mailed it in for the rest of his career. He was bad at the end of his Packers stretch and he was bad with the Bears and Washington.

0 points
0
0
RCPackerFan's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:09 am

"Well, wide receivers are getting PAID, aren't they? Ten NFL WRs are now making more than $24M per year with Justin Jefferson, Amon-Ra St. Brown, AJ Brown, and Tyreek Hill all averaging over $30M/yr. Anyone still worried about the Packers not having a true WR1? While probably not intentional, spreading the snaps among a bunch of really good receivers could save the Packers from having to dish out crazy WR contracts in the future."

I like this strategy, however to maintain this they really need to keep drafting WR's higher. Next year with Watson and Doubs entering their final years of contracts they should really look to draft a WR in the 2nd-3rd round area.

"Bo knows football "
I think Bo has a major breakout season. When he started to get playing time you could tell his confidence was very high. And he appears to be continuing that. I think his speed will be on display this year.

While I think Bo is going to break out, I also think each of the other 4 WR's are going to have big years. The one guy that I don't feel as good about is Heath. He is going to have a battle this training camp. I have penciled in Watson, Doubs, Reed, Wicks, Melton ahead of him.

2 points
2
0
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:49 am

The big disappointment so far in the WR room is Samori Toure, as evidenced by the fact you didn't even pencil him in the list of WR's ahead of Malik Heath at all. (I don't think many Packers fans would have remembered him, either.)

After a promising training camp as a rookie, he's been by and large invisible.

1 points
2
1
HawkPacker's picture

June 05, 2024 at 09:37 am

If I remember correctly, last year he came to camp and the coaches were so impressed with how he changed his body, etc. But it did not seem to make a difference as Toure was the forgotten man.

3 points
3
0
LambeauPlain's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:46 am

Reed, Wicks, Melton, Heath kept taking his spot on the bench. He could get back into the mix, but I doubt it. DuBose, with all his upside, is back in the mix too.

1 points
1
0
Coldworld's picture

June 05, 2024 at 01:47 pm

Heath, Toure, Dubose …. All likely fighting for one spot if all are healthy. Doubs, Watson, Wicks, Reed and Melton are going nowhere. Melton has that extra level of capability that you don’t let go now he’s started to harness it. He really, rightly, took Toure’s role on merit.

May the best man of the rest win, who wants it most, because they are all similar talents. (Heath and Dubose are also incredibly similar styles of player.) Competent depth/ role as an upside, not game breakers.

0 points
0
0
LeotisHarris's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:36 am

Doctors hate these three health hacks from CJ Stroud.
What CJ Stroud says will shock you!
Steven A reacts to CJ Stroud's comments on Arron Rodgers.
Aaron Rodgers new girlfriend throws shade at CJ Stroud!
You wont believe this proposed CJ Stroud for Jordan Love trade!

4 points
4
0
Johnblood27's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:40 am

Nice!

0 points
0
0
LambeauPlain's picture

June 05, 2024 at 10:23 am

Ha!

Stay tuned! CJ Stroud in negotiations to be the new "regular" on The Pat McAfee Show!

1 points
1
0
cdoemel's picture

June 05, 2024 at 05:38 pm

I’m pretty sure no one here would take CJ Stroud over jordan Love

0 points
0
0
LLCHESTY's picture

June 05, 2024 at 08:40 am

I guarantee he might have??

Sounds like something Stockholder would say.

3 points
4
1
Swisch's picture

June 05, 2024 at 11:05 am

As one who stuck with Jordan Love when it was widely believed he was a flop, I'm more than a little concerned now that it's widely believed he will be a superstar.
I'm hopeful Love will become a star, maybe even a superstar -- but after only a half a season of success, I'm not ready to pay him anything he wants. Also, he had one great playoff game, but in the other he threw two terrible interceptions in crunch time.
I'd go up to an average of $50 million per year over six years for $300 million. That would include this season, in which Love is due about $13 million.
Otherwise, I'd trade Love for the best deal we can get, and go with Clifford and Pratt.
Really.
***
That may seem radical, and I truly hope we don't lose Love.
However, a big part of that is up to him.
This all relates to Aaron Rodgers, Brett Favre and Bart Starr, and Vince Lombardi, and winning Super Bowls.
To paraphrase Lombardi, championships are won in the hearts of men under leaders who win their hearts.
That's why the Packers under Lombardi and Starr won an unprecedented and subsequently unmatched five championships in seven seasons -- including three in a row -- after Lombardi took over a team that was a laughingstock the prior season at 1-10-1.
That's why -- in reverse -- Rodgers and Favre fizzled after their early success. They didn't win the hearts of their teammates because they were too much about themselves.
That's why Love has to take a little less to allow his teammates to have a lot more. Love has to leave room to sign other top players needed to win championships (which Matt Stafford didn't have with the Lions); Love also has to allow salary cap space for his teammates to share in the wealth.
This would show Love to be the leader we want to win more Super Bowls for the Packers. He would still be fabulously wealthy, but by making a sacrifice he would win the hearts of his teammates (as well as endearing himself to fans).
As Lombardi said, "Men respond to leadership in a most remarkable way and once you have won his heart, he will follow you anywhere."
That's the way to bring glory back to Green Bay.
www.azquotes.com/quote/592774

-1 points
2
3
HawkPacker's picture

June 05, 2024 at 11:10 am

I admit that Love seems the type to take less money but will his agent let him do that? I had thought of that early on that he may take less but after reading so many articles/comments that he will command salary in the $50 million plus range I had forgotten my earlier thoughts. If he does take less than expected, it will be unprecedented.

3 points
4
1
Swisch's picture

June 05, 2024 at 02:14 pm

Hawk, Love taking less would be unprecedented, it seems, but then again it's only a select few QBs who win a Super Bowl, and a much tinier number who win more than one.
To be truly great, Jordan Love has to show a toughness of character by going his own way, not following the crowd.
If his agent, isn't on board, fire the agent. Why let an agent push you around if you're an athlete?
The player doesn't work for the agent; the agent is supposed to be serving the best interests of the player, as determined by the player.
***
The Packers also have to resist the insanity of other teams in giving out astronomical contracts.
Just because the Browns gave Deshaun Watson a long-term deal fully guaranteed, doesn't mean the Packers have to do so.
Just because the Lions gave Jared Goff a questionable contract of $212 million for four years, at an average of $53 million per year, doesn't mean the Packers have to do so.
How many championships have the Browns and Lions won recently, or even since the 1950s?
I'd guarantee Love at about a third of his total contract, which would be $100 million out of $300 million.
***
Is Jordan Love a leader or a follower?
To get to the very top, he needs to be a leader who will win the hearts of his teammates.
Otherwise, if Love likely doesn't have the stuff to win a Super Bowl in terms of leadership, why not go with Clifford or Pratt -- both of whom seem highly promising (drafted much later than their potential indicates).
Life went on with the Packers after Rodgers left, despite the doomsdayers.
It would be terribly sad to lose Love, but life would go on without him, too.
I want the Packers to pay all of their players well, but to break the bank for no one.
Talent is necessary, but so is character.
To be exceptional on the field, be exceptional off the field.

-3 points
0
3
barutanseijin's picture

June 05, 2024 at 07:39 pm

I admire how careful you are with other people’s money.

3 points
3
0
Untylu1968's picture

June 05, 2024 at 11:52 am

Love will get the going rate! Whether he deserves it or not isn't going to change a thing. The organization believes that he'll be the future, and they're prepared to lay the money down on it!
The same people complaining about this move, would be the same ones bitching if Love got away and was a star elsewhere. So let the dice fall as they may, and in five years, the case will be made, one way or the other!

4 points
4
0
Swisch's picture

June 05, 2024 at 02:26 pm

As Bart Starr liked to say (from William Jennings Bryan): "Destiny is not a matter of chance; it is a matter of choice."
The contract situation with Jordan Love is not a matter of inevitability; it's a matter of personal decisions.
Jordan Love doesn't have to do anything, and neither do the Packers.
We don't have to follow the crowd like a teen succumbing to peer pressure.
To be truly a champion, Love has to make his own decisions, and so does the front office of the Packers.
I'm hoping to see real leadership all around -- not a surrender to fate, but a show of fortitude.

0 points
1
1
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 03:39 pm

Correct.. if you don't pay the going rate, you're going to lose the player.
No contract comes with any guarantees of future performance.

It is what it is. People need to learn to stop with the hand wringing and go for it.

2 points
2
0
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 03:37 pm

Umm. Favre was beloved by his team mates for most of his career.

2 points
3
1
Johnblood27's picture

June 06, 2024 at 08:45 am

Favre also had a lot of trouble discerning opponents DB uniform colors from those of his WRs...

just sayin...

1 points
1
0
splitpea1's picture

June 05, 2024 at 11:14 am

When C. J. Stroud wins a Super Bowl, then maybe he can talk about that sort of thing.

3 points
4
1
Oppy's picture

June 05, 2024 at 03:45 pm

He's probably never watched a football game in his life and has zero business having an opinion, certainly doesn't have any right to express said opinion.

Why no outrage about qualifications when any of the hundreds of sports analysts and writers voice their opinions about QBs (and of these sports personalities, almost none of them have played pro football.. and most of those who did haven't won superbowls or played QB)?

This whole 'you can't have an opinion and share it unless you've won some superbowls' is the dumbest take I've heard in a while, and I'm shocked at how many of my otherwise brilliant Packers fan brothers and sisters are resting on this take... and it's all because someone dare insinuate that maybe Aaron Rodgers wasn't always giving the Packers a better chance to win than anyone else possibly could.

2 points
2
0
Bitternotsour's picture

June 05, 2024 at 04:46 pm

apostate

1 points
1
0
Johnblood27's picture

June 06, 2024 at 08:50 am

Editor: Post removed because you started in with politics. Sorry, but we're not doing that here.

0 points
0
0
Oppy's picture

June 06, 2024 at 05:05 pm

?

0 points
0
0
Johnblood27's picture

June 07, 2024 at 08:49 am

Thanks Editor.

Please do NOT forget to delete all other political posts including those with your leftist views.

0 points
1
1
NFLfan's picture

June 05, 2024 at 12:43 pm

Did anyone actually listen to the podcast? The question came out of nowhere, made him choose between 2 extremes and Stroud responded off the cuff and moved on. It's not as though he had a vendetta against Rodger's career.

Re: guys getting 'paid' I am not onboard with these gaudy contracts for the select few. It causes jealousy, undermining of the team and is more about cut-throat agents . I think Aaron Jones was a casualty of an agent likely in his ear about 'big money = respect'.

This is not an individual sport-for example, running backs are as valuable to the team, in a different way, as are WR's.
IMO, QBs are way overpaid. Certainly Goff, Watson, nor Cousins should be paid those exorbitant figures. Love has played 8 good games. He does not have the body of work to justify a max contract. If he is the good guy we think he is, I would hope he agrees to an incentivised contract. He should not be receiving a majority guaranteed $$ contract-not yet.

3 points
3
0
Packers0808's picture

June 05, 2024 at 02:22 pm

Stroud should have said simply "no Comment on the matter" instead of off the cuff comment. Better to be quiet than say something you have no business at his juncture to comment on in his short career.

1 points
3
2
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou's picture

June 05, 2024 at 03:15 pm

Do you recall being say 21 years old or 22 years old and what you did and said?

I do and I still cringe thinking about some of the the things I did and said.

6 points
6
0
Packers0808's picture

June 05, 2024 at 05:40 pm

Well being 79 today something I would have to think about being 50 years ago.

3 points
3
0
dobber's picture

June 06, 2024 at 08:06 am

Celebrate 79, friend! You've achieved something! I hope I make it that far!

0 points
0
0
HawkPacker's picture

June 06, 2024 at 09:56 am

Heck, I can't remember what I had for breakfast!

0 points
0
0
dobber's picture

June 06, 2024 at 08:05 am

He has handlers and PR advisers for a reason. Every one of these young stars has to be careful who they surround themselves with and who they're listening to. I think most of them are OK, but some clearly are getting bad advice.

None of us had the stage at 22 that he has...and potential missteps like that were unlikely to dog us for our future. These guys have to be so so careful now.

0 points
0
0
NFLfan's picture

June 06, 2024 at 12:51 pm

Whatever Stroud happened to say as a 22 y/o new QB was the result of being caught off-guard. It was a polarizing, stupid question on a slow news-day.

Rodgers (age 40) has actually, arrogantly made many more reckless, damaging comments about public health matters over which he is vastly under-qualified and has not lost one 1 minute of sleep.

3 points
3
0