Confessions of a Polluted Mindset - Men Without Pads

The Weekly Packers Brain Drain from Jersey Al.

Safety Dance - It's the NFL version of that tune (substitute pads for hats) as the grown men paid to wreak havoc on the football field are restricted to running around in shorts with no real contact. Safety first!

Inside Hype - It's pretty unusual to hear so much hype coming from within the Packers' organization about a player towards the bottom of the depth chart, but that's what we've been getting from Gutey, LaFleur, and Bisaccia about one Tyler Davis. Davis was signed off the Colt's Practice Squad last September after the Colts had picked him up when he was cut by Jacksonville. He had one memorable moment with a 22-yard reception in the 31-30 win over the Ravens, but if the Packers keep bringing up his name, they obviously see something that bears paying attention to.

Free Lazard - Interesting quote from Allen Lazard as reported by Tommy Birch of the Des Moines Register, "Davante leaving and everything creates a lot more opportunities for everybody. I’m pretty excited about that as an individual," said Lazard. That's Allen telling you he's looking forward to not being ignored when he's wide open, as happened in key moments of their last two playoff losses. 

The Bisaccia Factor - So he's a fiery dude. Not afraid to get in your face if you screw up and will be your biggest cheerleader if you excel. That's all well and good, but will it be enough? Will he be the guy that breaks the curse and does what others have been unable to do over the last decade - make special teams, um, competent? Well, one step will be putting better players on the field for special teams, and it seems he has LaFleur's blessing to do so. De'Vondre Campbell, Aaron Jones, and Adrian Amos were all seen playing teams in yesterday's practice. Good.

Is Bak Really Back? - David still in the rehab group after all this time? Should we be concerned or are they just playing it really safe since he got hurt in practice?

Never be content...

 

__________________________

"Jersey Al" Bracco is the Editor-In-Chief, part owner and wearer of many hats for CheeseheadTV.com and PackersTalk.com. He is also a recovering Mason Crosby truther.  Follow Al on twitter at @JerseyalGBP

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9 points

Comments (116)

Fan-Friendly This filter will hide comments which have ratio of 5 to 1 down-vote to up-vote.
porupack's picture

May 25, 2022 at 06:27 am

Always nice to find a preseason unknown get hyped. Each year there is at least one to rally around. I'll hope for Mr. Davis.

I'm still not convinced RGary is the #2 edge rusher despite being so on the list. I am a fan of Gary, but still think he's overhyped (not overrated) despite PFF data. I'd be interested in more insight. IIRC, it was mentioned much of his stats came in 2 games. So isn't there a better metric and list that seems to take in the impact/performance especially in situations that are critical? He certainly emerged, but just can't believe he had more impact that the Watts and Bosas among others.

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Guam's picture

May 25, 2022 at 07:35 am

I thought Gary's sacks came in bunches, but I also remember his pressures were pretty consistent from game to game. Consistent pressures are good and I believe PFF weights them fairly highly in their metrics. Not sure Gary is #2, but he had a very good year last year.

8 points
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Thegreatreynoldo's picture

May 26, 2022 at 03:19 am

I think consistent is more accurate. For example, TJ Watt had one 6 QB hit, two 5 QB hit, and one 4 QB hit games. So, 20 of his 39 QB hits came in 4 games. That still leaves 19 in the other 11 games in which he played. Similarly, Watt had a 4, a 3.5, and a 3-sack game, meaning 10 of his 22.5 sacks came in 3 games. But he was only shut out on QB hits in two of the 15 games in which he appeared (and he may or may not have registered pressures in those two games). Gary was shut out four times on the QB hit stat, but had at least one in the other 12 games in which appeared.

I don't know how often teams doubled Watt, or slid protection his way, etc. I think Gary saw some of that, but while IDK for sure I imagine Watt and Bosa got more of that treatment.

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Irish_Cheesehead's picture

May 25, 2022 at 07:54 am

Not sure how much more insight anyone needs to be convinced Gary is a difference maker. Watt fans need to get over the fact the Packers passed over him in the draft. That takes nothing away from Gary. He absolutely belongs at #2 in the list.

6 points
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PeteK's picture

May 25, 2022 at 10:33 am

I dislike these bogus lists because it makes it seem that we don't appreciate Gary. Watt with 74 tkls, 22.5 sks, 7 pds, and 5 ff is #4.

3 points
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NickPerry's picture

May 25, 2022 at 06:46 am

Lazard... My thinking is Lazard will catch around 75 balls for 1100 yards and 12 TD's. This obviously because 17 in gone, and other than Cobb, Lazard is the WR Rodgers trusts most. Lazard does SO MANY things well, especially as a blocker and just doing his job, my hope is the Packers try and extend him before camp. Otherwise he just may price himself out of GB. I sure hope not because I really like Lazard. Liked him coming out of college.

"De'Vondre Campbell, Aaron Jones, and Adrian Amos were all seen playing teams in yesterday's practice. Good."

Really Al? Good? I guess if the Packers are playing starters they have to come from somewhere, but DAMN...Campbell was a Godsend last year, really changed the defense. Aaron Jones and especially Adrian Amos both play positions where depth is a HUGE issue. Kalyn Hill may not be ready for the start of the year and we know nothing of Goodson yet. At Safety there's NOTHING really behind Amos and Savage. With 17 gone, Jones and Dillon are going to be HUGE in this offense, especially until Watson, Doubs and even Watkins get up to speed. It just feels dangerous to me, but I'm a worry wart too.

Both Gary and Preston Smith on this list AND we're heading into year 2 in the Joe Barry Defense. Throw in and even more athletic version of Campbell in Walker, and a cat quick 304 lbs 6'3" big man inside, with the BEST secondary in Football, AND Kenny Clark...Oh hell yes!

7 points
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LambeauPlain's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:10 am

Do more injuries happen during ST plays vs on O or D snaps? I do not know. Are STs considered as high risk for injuries mostly a narrative?

As far as playing O and D starters on STs, I am all for it if the data shows injury incidence is similar or even below other plays.

We always hear "play the best 5" on the OL, line up our best 11 on Defense, etc. Why not play the best 11 on STs?

Bissacia is instilling his "One Play" mentality. Selecting his best 11 for Teams from the entire roster at his disposal fits with this culture, IMO.

3 points
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Leatherhead's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:35 pm

LP, the league has tracked injuries for quite a while, and you are more likely to be injured on special teams, and the injury is more likely to be severe. They're high speed collisions by two forces moving in opposite directions.

That's why you don't put your key players on special teams. You don't want to lose a guy you're going to need.

The AVERAGE PUNT return is about 7.0 yards, and the vast majority are less than 20. Why risk a serious injury to a starter for this, especially when you don't have to?

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Thegreatreynoldo's picture

May 26, 2022 at 03:25 am

Is Amos more likely to get hurt if he plays 200 ST snaps versus zero? I think the answer is yes. Therefore, I do not favor playing starters on STs during the regular season.

I think the bottom of the roster has plenty of athletic ability to form a good ST squad. I could be wrong. Been so long since GB had competent STs I can't compare the teams.

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Coldworld's picture

May 26, 2022 at 11:08 am

You bring up a key point. Fatigue increases the risk of injury. Key players who play the majority of snaps therefore are more exposed by additional snaps regardless of the ST role. In addition, they lose recovery time.

A “starter” who plays less is probably neither as critical to the plan and is less of a risk. Those are typically the types who do play more ST snaps on teams like the Patriots and typically, they are 2nd and more often 3rd in snap count for their position.

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Tundraboy's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:02 pm

Worry warts anonymous! Welcome NP.

2 points
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egbertsouse's picture

May 25, 2022 at 07:27 am

Bahktiari sits out? Uh-oh!

7 points
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PeteK's picture

May 25, 2022 at 05:33 pm

If he was running around and practicing against air, than I'm not worried.

3 points
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mnbadger's picture

May 25, 2022 at 12:27 pm

I'm sure that MLF and BG would rather hear us cheeseheads of the world worry that DB's on the recovery list than pounding our cheeseheads against a wall if he got hurt during OTA's. Nothing to see here IMO. GPG!

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Guam's picture

May 25, 2022 at 07:43 am

Bahk is starting to worry me. I know that Packer medical staff is very conservative, but Bahk is 18 months past his ACL and should be fully recovered by now. The fact that he is not a full-go participant is concerning.

Lazard is still a bit of a puzzle to me. I hope he has a banner year, but having watched him for a couple of years now, he does, at times, struggle to get separation and that was against other team's weaker corners since Adams always drew the best coverage CBs. I think this will be a telling year as to whether Lazard can truly become a solid #2 in the receiving game or more of a good blocking #3 / #4 WR.

10 points
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MainePackFan's picture

May 25, 2022 at 07:57 am

I was thinking the same thing about Bahk when I heard he was still rehabbing. I fear this not a good sign. I wonder if that had something to do with adding 3 OL in the draft.

I get what you are saying Guam, but I think Lazard will be fine. He knows this is his opportunity, and so far he has given Pack fans no reason to doubt he won't take advantage of it.

8 points
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Guam's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:31 am

MPC: I would love it if Lazard had a great year. Hard working UDFA's that make it in the NFL have always been one of my favorite parts of football. Great underdog stories and the Packers have had a number of them. Having said that my admittedly unskilled eye test leaves me with concerns about Lazard. I hope I am wrong!

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greengold's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:42 am

Hey Guam! Just a heads-up that you might like. Allen Lazard averages 2.2 yds of separation per Target.

I think he's WAY better than many might realize, and I'm confident he's going to move the chains and score with ease this season.

This is one hell of a hard working, dedicated, powerful, fast WR who has shown himself capable on many occasions of getting those much needed 1Ds and scores. 8 TDs last year, with Davante Adams acting as a TD vacuum. Impressive.

Compare his stats side by side with Jordy's, and through their first 3 seasons they are remarkably similar.

3 points
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PeteK's picture

May 25, 2022 at 10:50 am

If Plexico Burress can have 4 seasons of over a thousand yds so can Lazard. They are the same size with equal measurements. Use him the same way the Giants did, intermediate high passes.

2 points
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dobber's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:16 am

Mandatory minicamp is the first real checkpoint, but I'm just not going to worry about Bakhtiari until we get to July (wouldn't do any good, anyway). If he's struggling to stay out of the whirlpool and on the practice field when camp gets going, then I'll be concerned. He's going to have his practice reps managed for awhile, yet, anyway so I can't say I'm terribly surprised he's with the side group---after all, at least he's there.

I'd love for Lazard to emerge as a high-volume guy, but echo your fear with Lazard, Guam. I think until the Packers establish a pass catcher who is going to hurt defenses deep, defenses are going to crowd the LOS, press Packers WR, force the Packers to play "small ball" and make ARod throw the ball into tight windows...which means--I think--guys like Lazard are going to struggle to uncover.

We overlook how much a player like Adams opens up the passing game for the rest of the pass catchers--whether 12 throws them the ball or not. There's going to be some very real growing pains with this group unless someone like Watkins or AJones or even one of the rookies comes out of the gate breathing fire. Above, NP projected 75 catches and 1100 yards for Lazard...I'm thinking 60 and 800, 6 TDs, but his real value will be on 3rd down. I'm expecting his ypc will be down.

5 points
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Guam's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:35 am

Your third paragraph says it all Dobber. I like Lazard and wish him the best, but without the security blanket that was Adams, the Packer receiving corps is going to be challenged by opposing secondaries this year.

1 points
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Leatherhead's picture

May 25, 2022 at 12:19 pm

I think that when we line up 3 WRs, like we do about half the time, the defense has to play nickel or risk a disaster. You throw it to a guy like Lazard or Watson or Amari who breaks the tackle of a smaller defender and you have a big play. I don't think teams will take the risk and only play man defense with a single safety. If they do, then we need to make them pay. It won't take long until we see a steady diet of double deep safeties

-1 points
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Leatherhead's picture

May 25, 2022 at 12:22 pm

Aaarrrrrrrrggghggh!

2 points
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SanLobo's picture

May 25, 2022 at 03:01 pm

I love this comment! I hope it becomes you’re highest rated ever as it reflects my attitude on much of what I see these days.

1 points
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Leatherhead's picture

May 25, 2022 at 12:20 pm

Yeah, a double post. I'm on my stinking phone riding in a car right now.

1 points
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HawkPacker's picture

May 25, 2022 at 03:57 pm

Hey LH, glad you are riding and not driving!!

1 points
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WestCoastPackerBacker's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:42 am

They just drafted some crazy speed at wide receiver. They will absolutely be using one or more of those guys as a downfield threat, which will absolutely open up intermediate routes for guys like Lazard.

6 points
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dobber's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:14 am

From your keyboard to God's screen, I hope you're right. Someone has to do it, and they need to do it from week one.

3 points
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MainePackFan's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:01 am

Good points Dobber. I have Lazard somewhere in between you and NP. I'm thinking 65/900/8.

2 points
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greengold's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:40 am

I'm not worried in the least.

Davante was not much of a deep threat. He simply commanded a ton of double coverage in intermediate zones - and AR was ALWAYS looking to him as a 1st read, sometimes not letting go. MVS was a deep threat who should have pulled more S help than he did.

We just added 2 of the drafts best deep ball threats in Watson and Doubs, along with the FA signing of Sammy Watkins. Not just any Sammy Watkins either, but one who has been training well, and from all indications is in great shape.

Watson has the speed and the catching ability MVS never could touch. I cannot believe, after all we've learned about him, that Gutekunst was able to get him at #34.

The Packers are going to light other teams up with a barrage of insanely good talents at WR this season. Legends will be made. I'm convinced of that.

Lazard might be one of them, with QB's Best Friend status already entrenched with Aaron Rodgers. Could easily see him getting an additional 30-40 Targets with Adams & MVS gone.

4 points
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Coldworld's picture

May 25, 2022 at 10:38 am

“Watson has the speed and the catching ability MVS never could touch.”

This is not supported by facts. Yes he has similar speed, but catching is not his strong point, at this stage of his career at least. We don’t help by minimizing the growth required of Watson. Personally I’d bet on Doubs emerging as the deep threat first among the rookies, however.

3 points
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greengold's picture

May 25, 2022 at 12:23 pm

I beg to differ.

Watson had 180 Targets in his 4 year career at NDSU, catching a total of 104 passes. 58% Catch%. Take out his poorest season, the COVID 2020 year, and his Catch% jumps to 65%.

How many of those Targets were "Catchable Targets?" Allen Lazard had 60 Targets in 2021, but only 50 of them were Catchable Targets... How many of those Targets were intercepted or batted at the LOS?

Christian Watson had 16 drops in his 4 year career, with minimal use at 180 Total Targets.

Is a 12.5% Career Drop rate significant with such minimal use?

Watson at NDSU:
2018: 9 rec.15 targets
2019: 34 rec/57 targets
2020: 18 rec/48 targets
2021 43 rec/62 targets

Drop% by Year
2018: 2 drops, 18.2% drop rate
2019: 2 drops, 5.6% drop rate
2020: 7 drops, 28% drop rate
2021: 5 drops, 10.4% drop rate

Targets/game
2018: 15 targets/13 games = 1.2 t/g
2019: 57 targets/14 games = 4 t/g
2020: 46 targets/8 games = 5.8 t/g
2021 62 targets/13 games = 4.8 t/g

Drop% means little under such limited use and skews his numbers negatively.

Take out the COVID year, and he had 9 drops in 3 seasons.

Stats can tell very different stories if you're not careful. Sample sizes in statistics can greatly skew +/- outcomes.

NDSU passed more than 25 Attempts just once in 2021. Passing attempts averaged 17 per game in 2021.

Under such conditions, Watson dropping a single pass greatly affects his drop% with such few targets.

MVS had an 14.3 drop% in 2020, his 3rd season with the Packers... 9 drops in 63 targets. 15 drops total in his 251 targets, and a 49.8% Catch% over 4 years in GB.

FACTS.

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Coldworld's picture

May 25, 2022 at 03:31 pm

I’ve watched enough Watson and how they got him the ball. You are free to differ, but I will trust my eyes and those of others who followed him before the combine. Hopefully it’s a matter of not having to learn to beat that opposition, but he’s going to have to improve his catching technique and concentration in the NFL.

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PatrickGB's picture

May 25, 2022 at 03:25 pm

I’m sorta, kinda, somewhat worried. I see potential in the new WR corp’s and will have to wait and see if it pans out during THIS season.

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Minniman's picture

May 25, 2022 at 02:29 pm

Watkins' availability is also going to influence Lazard's numbers.

Actually, scratch that, the RB's and TE's are also going to need to be relevant for the Packers WR room to be potent.

Does anyone else remember 2014 - when both Cobb and Adams were on the team - and Jordy went down for the season with an injury (ACL - I think?)? We were lamenting then that Adams, Cobb and James Jones (who was brought back in) couldn't get separation and were getting smothered.

In part this was due to both the RB's (Lacy and Starks) being either ineffectual or injured - an uninjured and fit Lacy was definitely not ineffectual! - and the TE play being ignored.

The 2022/23 Packers are only going to succeed by being balanced. This is hardly sage advice, but true. I actually trust the Packers WR's to deliver chain moving and red zone effectiveness when opposition defenses are equally (if not more) focused on RB's....... with a healthy dose of necessary TE respect added in there.

0 points
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Thegreatreynoldo's picture

May 26, 2022 at 03:45 am

Richard Rodgers had a career year in 2015 with 510 yards. He wasn't ignored, he just wasn't very good. Yet AR, with a herculean effort, got him the ball 58 times on 85 targets, though just for a 6 yard/target result. Jermichael Finley had a career high of 92 targets, and because he was good, he averaged 8.3 yards per target. Moreover, AR got washed up James Jones (out of the league after 2015) 890 yards.

2015 was AR's worst statistical year, but my eye test suggests he had a very good year. GB went 10-6 and won a wild card while losing the divisional playoff game.

1 points
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Coldworld's picture

May 26, 2022 at 11:14 am

Richard Rodgers had excellent hands. He didn’t have power or explosiveness unfortunately.

0 points
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RCPackerFan's picture

May 25, 2022 at 07:43 am

Safety Dance -
Weird right. But this is the time of year to learn the play book and start understanding assignments on the field. Something for all the young players.

Inside Hype -
Davis was my darkhorse pick for a player after the season for a guy to pay attention to this coming season. He just has something about him. And then everyone in the organization along with media started talking about him being the guy to watch. So I guess I will have to find a new darkhorse player to keep an eye on.

Free Lazard -
I believe Lazard will have a big year. I won't say he will have the biggest numbers of anyone on the team, but the one area that I could see him leading the team is in TD receptions. Keep an eye on him in the redzone. His size and hands make him a prime candidate to take some of the TD's that Adams got.

The Bisaccia Factor -
I'm good with him putting good players on special teams. BUT I do not want some of the starters that we can ill afford to lose playing. For example, Aaron Jones. We cannot lose him on offense. Campbell, can't lose him on defense. But i am ok with some better players playing special teams. We need a change. Getting the better players on the field in anyway they can help the field will only make us better.

Is Bak Really Back? -
Good question. I think its a bit concerning. But it could simply be being overly cautious.

Never be content...
Gary is primed for another big year. Preston looks ready. The third guy is the question mark. While I think Enagbare could be that guy, we won't know until training camp. Don't be surprised if they look for a veteran player to add much like they did with Mercilus last year.

3 points
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WestCoastPackerBacker's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:44 am

There will need to be more than three guys rushing from the edge. And we certainly will not know by training camp. It won’t be in till they face real competition in games that we’ll have a glimmer of an idea what there is behind smith and Gary.

1 points
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dobber's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:10 am

I'd argue that the significant changes to the front 7 have all pretty much been to the DL. We can talk about Z's departure, but he played so little in 2021 that he really didn't enter into the discussion except to say, "geez it would be nice if they could add Z to t he mix." Enagbare is the only guy they've added who's an outside rusher. Garvin, Tipa, Hamilton--I won't say that those guys won't make a leap in 2022, but they're pretty well established and haven't yet looked like impact players.

1 points
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Coldworld's picture

May 25, 2022 at 10:40 am

Galeai needs to add mass. Will that happen? If it hasn’t by season 3, I don’t see him realizing the potential of his athleticism simply because he can be manhandled.

Garvin needs to have added some strength and mass. His style is similar to Gary, extra mass/strength will help him. He looked decent before his injury half way through the season. More an edge holder than a threat to sack, but that has value.

Hamilton I have seen much less of, but seems to have more penetrative potential than Garvin but possibly also needed time to physically develop.

The guy missing is Ramsey who, like Davis, is constantly getting mentioned. Let’s see if he stays healthy, but my guess is that he’s part of their expectations.

4 points
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jannes bjornson's picture

May 25, 2022 at 10:13 am

More four man fronts. Some will be up, some hand in the turf. Dom is gone, Pettine is in therapy...

-2 points
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PeteK's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:04 am

Wonder if Walker could occasionally be put in at OLB. However, we have 16.7 mill to make a move if a need arises.

0 points
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LambeauPlain's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:30 am

I expect so. Walker played all over the front 7 at Georgia. He will definitely be part of the rush packages Barry employs. Quay was one of the best Bulldogs applying pressure up the middle too, on delayed blitzes, and stunts.

3 points
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Coldworld's picture

May 26, 2022 at 11:16 am

I think it’s more likely he blitzes up the middle more often. That becomes a viable proposition in this D if he’s playing with Campbell.

0 points
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jannes bjornson's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:44 am

He can be used in 4-3 looks as a SLB with Barnes inside and Campbell playing free. Walker was brought on board to be multiple. Barry should be having fun scheming this group along with a better front four.

0 points
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LLCHESTY's picture

May 25, 2022 at 05:02 pm

They played less than 50 snaps of 4-3-4 or 4-2-5 last year. I doubt that changes.

1 points
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jannes bjornson's picture

May 28, 2022 at 04:22 pm

That was then, see what the now brings...

0 points
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dobber's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:50 am

"We need a change. Getting the better players on the field in anyway they can help the field will only make us better."

If there's a time to see when some front-liners might have an affinity for STs and could help there, it's when nobody is hitting anyone.

1 points
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Coldworld's picture

May 25, 2022 at 10:53 am

If Campbell has to play STs regularly, what on earth are we keeping those behind him for? In reality, practice is key at this point in case injuries require an emergency contribution, but otherwise that’s what depth is for in significant part. Taylor should have been taking the Dillon ST snap in the last game (or one of the other active backups at S or ILB etc).

3 points
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Ya_tittle's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:39 am

We lost that Niner game in part because some fool thought Dillon belonged on special teams and he wasn't available when we needed a tough RB to close out the game.

1 points
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Ya_tittle's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:39 am

We lost that Niner game in part because some fool thought Dillon belonged on special teams and he wasn't available when we needed a tough RB to close out the game.

0 points
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JerseyAl's picture

May 25, 2022 at 03:43 pm

They lost the Niner game because of special teams. If there is a way to prevent special teams from deciding your playoff fate, I'm all for it, even if it could be risky.

3 points
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Swisch's picture

May 25, 2022 at 04:59 pm

Late in that game, if Rodgers throws the ball to Lazard running free across the field in front of his very eyes -- instead of forcing the ball to Adams in futility -- then the Packers probably win.
Lazard may have taken it to the house, or at least into field goal range -- with the latter scenario eating up precious time (remember the 49ers kicked the winning field goal in the waning seconds) and still possibly turning into a touchdown.
***
I agree with you, JerseyAl, that special teams were a major factor in losing against the 49ers -- although it would have helped if Rodgers had led the offense in such a way that it wasn't backed up to our own endzone when that punt was blocked.
Rodgers gets paid a humongous amount to overcome mistakes by other players -- and that opportunity to throw a simple pass to Lazard was an easy way to do it.
It is the most epic fail in Packers playoff history that I can think of, and one of the worst in NFL history -- and yet Rodgers is left almost completely unaccountable, and gets a hefty raise. Does anyone dispute this?
I wonder how the mega-salary of our diva quarterback compares to the salaries of all of the special teams players put together.
***
By the way, in the history of the Packers, how often has the team been so desperate as to use a starting running back (or other skill player) on special teams as a blocker or tackler?
I guess the only thing one can say about the fiasco of losing Dillon to an injury on special teams is that Rodgers probably wouldn't have handed him the ball anyway.
***
I will say, JerseyAl, that at least you have showed the play in which Rodgers overlooked Lazard in a display of spectacular stubbornness or stunning incompetence.
Also, I hope even in disagreement is good camaraderie among loyal Packers fans.

2 points
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Leatherhead's picture

May 25, 2022 at 05:19 pm

That was a historically bad playoff performance by the Packer offense. They’ve scored fewer points four times in about 64 playoff games. But sure, we can blame it on one play by a guy at the bottom of the roster.

But I’m glad to see that you agree with me that you should try to prevent special teams from costing you games, especially playoff games.. Minimize the impact they have.

There are actually ways to do this,

0 points
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Swisch's picture

May 25, 2022 at 05:51 pm

I'm all in on improving our dismal special teams on the Packers after such an agonizingly long time of ineptitude.
However, if it's mostly about playing starters on special teams, as well as drafting players differently to improve special teams, I would be understanding of Mo Drayton if he said, "Why didn't you do that for me?"

1 points
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marpag1's picture

May 25, 2022 at 05:30 pm

AJ Dillon logged TWO snaps on special teams.

It's true that Dillon was injured on his second ST snap - a kickoff return - but I don't think we can blame MLF for that. Getting hurt after a meager TWO snaps is just bad luck. It's not like MLF was overworking the guy.

Besides, Aaron Jones went for 170 yards from scrimmage, so it's not like Jones wasn't producing. He was just about the only player who WAS producing.

But I do agree that when your offense can only muster 10 points, and looks god-awful bad doing it, perhaps the special teams were not the only problem that we had.

1 points
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HarryHodag's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:16 am

I began to wonder about David B. when the Packers drafted not one, but three, guys who can play tackle if need be. It wouldn't be the first time an injured knee ended a career. Lets cross fingers that isn't the case.

8 points
8
0
dobber's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:25 am

None of the guys they drafted profile as true LTs, though. Walker in the 7th might be the closest. I think if there were real concerns that 69 was done, they would've covered their butts by making a move for an OT early that could play LT at least until Jenkins is playable. Right now--if you assume 69 is out of the mix--they only have one NFL LT on the roster: Nijman. They couldn't go into camp that way after making the mondo investment they did in 12. I think all signs point to their expecting Bakh to play.

2 points
5
3
Coldworld's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:54 am

But Nijman and Jenkins (at some point) do and now we have a bunch who do profile at right even if none turn out to fit on the left, which isn’t a certainty.

I think that in part is insurance and in part planning for next year.

5 points
5
0
Leatherhead's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:48 pm

It's Nijman. And we shouldn't be thinking "until Jenkins is playable", like we thought about Bakhtiari last year.

If I were running the show, I'd be suspicious of Bakhtiari's ability to practice and play over the course of a training camp and 17 game season. And if Bakhtiari isn't playing LT for us, I'd rather have Nijman there instead of the rookies. So I'd play him there and back him up with Walker. I'd focus on getting somebody else to play RT, and the best answer might be Newman. That would let us play Rhyan at RG, the least important spot on the line.

I'm concerned. If you include Bakhtiari, Jenkins, and Myers, it's a pretty good line, but we might not see these guys together even once this year, and it's entirely possible that we might not have any of them available at some point. We're going to have to play youngsters and they're going to have to play well.

0 points
0
0
Leatherhead's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:21 am

I'm officially worried about Bakhtiari. I'm worried about Jenkins for this year. And I'm worried about Myers, because he missed most of last year and I still don't know if he can survive a full season. So that's three of our best, and that's why I'm at Defcon 4. As I've said before, if we're not 100% that Bakhtiari is ready, we should leave Nijman at LT so he could take practice reps when Bakhtiari is resting, and so he'd be ready if Bakhtiari can't go. LT is the most important offensive line position and if Bakhtiari can't go, I'd rather have Nijman there than one of the rookies.

Lazard will have a very good year if he can stay on the field. He's missed 8 of our last 33 regular season games....that's only about 75% availability, which is not real good for a WR. If he stays on the field, he might get close to 100 targets and that might equal about 70 receptions. If he stays on the field. Personally, I think he'll fall short of 70 receptions this year, but he should have 50 or so at least. IF he stays on the field.

We're all in favor of having good players on special teams until they start getting hurt.

Davis looks like he's going to make the team. If Tonyan is really ready by the opener, I think our TE unit will be Lewis, Deguara, Tonyan, and Davis. That's not a bad group.

Gary makes me laugh. Before the draft, he was the #1 player that the cognoscenti here did NOT want the Packers to draft. The anguish after he was selected was classic. Then as a rookie, the guys ahead of him stayed healthy and played great, and you had the chorus of "overrated, a bust, a wasted draft pick", from people who apparently don't realize that some players grow and develop their first couple of years in the league. Now, he's a very good player with some very good players around him.....I think he's going to have a great year.

5 points
7
2
Leatherhead's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:21 am

I'm officially worried about Bakhtiari. I'm worried about Jenkins for this year. And I'm worried about Myers, because he missed most of last year and I still don't know if he can survive a full season. So that's three of our best, and that's why I'm at Defcon 4. As I've said before, if we're not 100% that Bakhtiari is ready, we should leave Nijman at LT so he could take practice reps when Bakhtiari is resting, and so he'd be ready if Bakhtiari can't go. LT is the most important offensive line position and if Bakhtiari can't go, I'd rather have Nijman there than one of the rookies.

Lazard will have a very good year if he can stay on the field. He's missed 8 of our last 33 regular season games....that's only about 75% availability, which is not real good for a WR. If he stays on the field, he might get close to 100 targets and that might equal about 70 receptions. If he stays on the field. Personally, I think he'll fall short of 70 receptions this year, but he should have 50 or so at least. IF he stays on the field.

We're all in favor of having good players on special teams until they start getting hurt.

Davis looks like he's going to make the team. If Tonyan is really ready by the opener, I think our TE unit will be Lewis, Deguara, Tonyan, and Davis. That's not a bad group.

Gary makes me laugh. Before the draft, he was the #1 player that the cognoscenti here did NOT want the Packers to draft. The anguish after he was selected was classic. Then as a rookie, the guys ahead of him stayed healthy and played great, and you had the chorus of "overrated, a bust, a wasted draft pick", from people who apparently don't realize that some players grow and develop their first couple of years in the league. Now, he's a very good player with some very good players around him.....I think he's going to have a great year.

0 points
2
2
PeteK's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:16 am

Yes, there were some that did not want Gary drafted, but most, me included, were concerned after his poor first and a half seasons. Hindsight is 20/20.

0 points
0
0
marpag1's picture

May 25, 2022 at 05:46 pm

I have to wonder how much Lazard's availability and targets are affected by the fact that he's such a damn good blocker. A lot of receivers are going to look like fools blocking down on actual defensive ends and LBs (as opposed to just playing pattycake with a DB), but Lazard is good enough to do it, and that's pretty rough sledding. Maybe it's not surprising that he gets banged up, or that he isn't available for a target.

2 points
2
0
Grandfathered's picture

May 25, 2022 at 07:55 pm

I recall Gary had an unknown injury that soured some folks.

0 points
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SugarCain's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:40 am

Gary will dominate and be one of Guteys greatest draft picks!

Lazard will be wide ass open running across the middle of the field —just throw him the ball!

14-3 —-Let’s Gooooooooo!

6 points
6
0
Leatherhead's picture

May 25, 2022 at 12:09 pm

I did a little number checking today.

We play double TE about 30 plays/game, and 3 or more WRs (usually 3) on about 36 plays a game. That's on average, through 17 games and injuries, etc.

The 3 WR set presents a real problem for the defense, because if you don't play nickel, you're risking a big play on a every completion or broken tackle. That's a huge risk. So the smart thing is to play 5 DBs, but then that only leaves you with 6 run defenders in the box against the Packer offensive line and Mercedes Lewis, with Jones or Dillon carrying the ball. That's not a good matchup for the defense. Especially with second level blockers like Lazard on the field.

Lazard, when he's healthy, plays about 45 snaps but only gets targeted about 4 times. That's going to change, but if he played in all 17 games, and got targeted twice as much...8 times a game.....that'd be 136 targets , more than twice as many as last year. If you project a catch% of around 70%, that'd be just under 100 catches.

I can't honestly sign on to that. My assumption on Lazard is that he will get targeted more, but not twice as much, and he will miss a few games. 15 games X 7 targets per game would be 105 targets and about 70 catches. That seems more realistic to me.

-1 points
0
1
dobber's picture

May 25, 2022 at 04:22 pm

"We play double TE about 30 plays/game, and 3 or more WRs (usually 3) on about 36 plays a game. That's on average, through 17 games and injuries, etc."

This source says that the last two years, the Packers have played 11 personnel (3 WR, 1 RB, 1 TE) about twice as often as 12 (1 RB, 2 TE, 2 WR) and have used other sub packages only a couple percent of the time--over 60% of offensive snaps last season were out of 3 WR sets. So over 60 offensive snaps, that's a shade under 40 snaps for 11 personnel and about 20 snaps for non-11 personnel groupings.

In the end, the question is how these counters establish the positional counting. Is Deguara lined up in the backfield a TE or a FB? If AJones splits wide, is he a RB or a WR? Those things are never entirely clear, but with the changes from last season, there are a lot of snaps to be had in this WR group. The Packers are almost assured to play less 11 personnel than in past years.

https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/personnel-grouping-frequency.html

1 points
1
0
Leatherhead's picture

May 25, 2022 at 05:36 pm

Thanks for that. I had to go old school and add up all the snaps of our TEs, and then divide that by 17 games which gave me about 95 TE offensive snaps.per game, and since we have about 66 offensive snaps per game, we must have had a second TE on the field about 30 times, right?

I did the same with the WRs.

60% of 66 would be close to 40 plays , leaving 26 , or 40%, for the Double TE sets.

1 points
1
0
Thegreatreynoldo's picture

May 26, 2022 at 04:38 am

I count 1439 TE snaps (Lewis, Dafney, Deguara, Tonyan, Davis) or 1.29 TEs on average per play. GB averaged 65.64 plays per game (1,116 plays). Leaves 19 plays per game with two TEs (I count all five guys as TEs even if some might suggest they are H or F-backs). Obviously, there were some plays with no TEs on the field (and few with three but some), so the 19 plays figure is a little low.

Dobber's link suggest 27 plays with 3 TEs and 55 with none.

0 points
0
0
dobber's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:47 am

Pads/no pads, this is what the players and owners have decided they wanted: less practice time, less contact, fewer injuries. It's not good for the quality of the game and limits the ability of fringe players to stick (neither the NFLPA nor the owners care about those guys, anyway), but it helps prolong careers and keep high end players on the field.

Every year--at least when he was participating in OTAs--ARod had a new favorite WR who he was juicing up. Lazard, Abbrederis, Kumerow...there was always someone. I think you're right, Al, in that the coaching staff has usually been less glib. Only one team played more 2-TE sets than the Packers in 2021, and many of us were advocating for a true, multipurpose TE in this last draft.

It certainly sounds like they like Davis a lot, and maybe he provides something that they don't get from anyone else on the roster: flexibility to play usefully inline or split out. Lewis might be a big body and a good blocker, but he's lost most of his burst and is mostly an afterthought in the passing game. None of Tonyan, Deguara, or Dafney are inline blockers. They're H-backs/move TEs, or big WRs. Davis is a converted QB --> WR --> TE who came out of college still learning the position. Given their inability to find a high-end TE in the draft, striking gold (or even silver) on a guy like this would go a long way toward shoring up the position.

0 points
2
2
Coldworld's picture

May 25, 2022 at 10:51 am

Gute has commented that an all around TE coming out of college these days is a rare beast. He’s pointed to the fact that, like S, a dual purpose blocking and receiving TE has become a position that normally takes time to learn at the NFL level because of the ways most TEs are used in college.

Davis, for example, spent his senior year largely blocking despite his athleticism, because the team had issues up front. His offensive technique and route knowledge needed to be developed. He flashed as a blocker in line and in the passing game. An off season in our system should help him be much better positioned to show what he is capable of.

3 points
3
0
croatpackfan's picture

May 25, 2022 at 02:34 pm

"Pads/no pads, this is what the players and owners have decided they wanted: less practice time, less contact, fewer injuries. It's not good for the quality of the game and limits the ability of fringe players to stick (neither the NFLPA nor the owners care about those guys, anyway), but it helps prolong careers and keep high end players on the field."

dobber, if you practice well and a lot there is huge chance you'll finish with serious injury, especially if you are in very physically chalanged profession.

Idea that with less training players will be preserved is ridiculous. You have to prepare your organism for higher efforts than it is usually built. Only way you can do that is through more time working on demanding trainings. No other way. It is like that in every human (or animal) sport and profession.

This must not be confused with fatigue or weariness because you do not have enough time to recover your body. On the other side, if you are not trained enough fatigue will show quite quickly and injury is just around the corner.

Wrong understanding of the problem very often produce catastrofies. BTW, I do not think that number of injuries went down with enlarging restrictions on time and type of training.

We saw in the recent past that almost all teams losing their important players (which playing the most) to very serious and long term injuries. That is something that support what I wrote....

Also, I believe changing of the football rules helped to cut down the injuries, otherwise there will be SB between 2 teams playing with 3rd stringers...

0 points
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0
croatpackfan's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:42 am

For a time with little to non information, good collection of question you were able to give us, Al.

Regarding those pads/no pads issue I have no objection in this part of preparation/training players as RCPFan clearly stated. It is not at full speed and it purpose is to put the players into the right position on the field, not to produce any other evaluation on them than how much newcomers mastered playbook.

Regarding Davis topic, I can only say that I hope he will live the hype he produced till now.

Allen Lazard is one good person and I wish him the best because of that. I hope he will help other colleagues to easier master playbook and to help each others for Packers to be dangerous on the offense.

RB Factor - the usage of starters in this part of the off season may be, also, just a reminder to players at the bottom of the depth chart that it is not the position on that chart, but the execution which will lead to the decision when the cuts come....

Regarding David Bakhtiari - about two months ago I mention that there is no news about David Bakhtiari knee and how he progress with the healing or not. I also mention that main problem is not knowing why there is steadily accumulation of water in his knee. If they knows what is the problem, they would solved it. One way or another. It looks like they do not know how to prevent that accumulation and that is the main reason why David is still in rehabbing. That might be the reason for retirement, too.
So, neither us nor them (doctors, therapists and other experts) knows what future will bring. I do not mind that we do not knows, worrisome is that all those experts have the problem to find out what the hell cause that leaking in the knee.

I was Gary supporter from the beginning and I'm glad he excels. I hope he will end as first at his position...

2 points
2
0
wildbill's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:57 am

Lazard should change his number to 17 so it will be easy for Rodgers to find him

12 points
12
0
marpag1's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:22 am

Ha! A couple seasons ago I said that the WR should go stand out of bounds, and ARod would be sure to sail a throw-away in his direction.

3 points
3
0
marpag1's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:10 am

Heck yeah, I'm worried about Bak. I was worried already last year. I think we can know for a fact that his rehab has not gone well. It's been a year and a half since he injured it. And he's 30 now, so rehabbing isn't going to get any easier.

We know for a fact that he needed a second surgery... got the knee scoped to "clean it up." That was around the end of November 2021. That's non-standard.

It seems to me that the Packers medical staff has been a bit puzzled by what's going on. They didn't put him on IR to start the season, they put him on PUP. Then they brough him back in November, only to keep him inactive until the last game of the year. All of this is.... odd.

Then they had him play in a fairly unimportant game against the Lions last week of the regular season. People said, "Oh, he needs the reps," and that made sense. But what didn't make sense is that he played only about 20 snaps and then went out. And even though the Packers had a bye week, Bak was still declared inactive for the playoff game vs. SF. So I think we have to admit that the Detroit game did NOT go well at all.

To summarize, At first, they seemed to think PUP was better than designated to return on IR. Then they brought him back from the PUP November 10. After bringing him back (??) they discovered he needed to get scoped. He didn't actually play until January 9, when he got only 20 snaps. And then was unable to play on January 22, two and a half months after he came back from the PUP, and about 13 months (and two surgeries) after the injury.

Now we hear that he's still rehabbing? Sure, it's possible the Packers are just playing it safe for OTAs. But none of this is encouraging. It's downright unsettling.

8 points
8
0
Grandfathered's picture

May 25, 2022 at 08:08 pm

It would be nice to have some interview or written column of a sports trainer or medical person who might say sometyhing like "I have not examined Bak myself and have no personal knowledge, generally a ACL has XYZ timeline to recovery, which is different for players depending on blah blah blah. Things that make an ACl take longer to heal include ABC and DEF. Most NFL payers recover x% of the time in blank months" . I would like to see that, and last season proved with the OL injuries (example, Myers) that fans are completely in the dark and even generalized info can be interesting. Or if anyone knows of such publishede commentary, please let me know, thank you.

0 points
0
0
greengold's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:57 am

Safety Dance
It’s that time where today’s NFL teams EASE INTO training. A lot has been made about Rodgers not being in attemdance at these voluntary OTAs, (yet), but, I can see where they just want to work some kinks out, get WR route responsibiities down, while saving wear & tear on a 39 year old QB. It does make sense, in spite of the team building aspect.

We all want him ready to run through walls to be here with his team, but, maybe LaFleur wants it this way…

Hoping all of our players stay injury free, and rock those reps, Jordan!
__

Inside Hype
No kidding, Al. Now, I’m starting to have some expectations for Tyler Davis! LOL. Actually, this is a testament of Gutekunst’s Pro Personnel Dept. Both sides, college & Pro have uncovered some gems these last couple of years.

It will be fun to see what Davis brings, what all the hype is really about...

Come to think of it, ALL of Gutekunst’s personnel upgrades, via draft, FA, Futures Contracts, etc. have produced some great finds with remarkable value. Gutekunst appears to be an ascending talent.
__

Free Lazard
I’m continually amazed by the number of people who regard Allen Lazard as some kind of lesser talent. The guy produces in spades. Compare his first 3 years to that of Jordy Nelson in their side by side stats. Remarkable the similarities.

Not saying he’s Jordy, but, those efficiency, reliability and production qualities ought to be appreciated more. With all the speed added at WR, Allen should be gobbling up all kinds of underneath stuff in those intermediate windows, in single coverage. I think he goes over 1k yds this season, easy.

Is there a better “QB’s Best Friend,” on the roster? As of this date? Lazard's QB Rating per Target is 132.8.

***Another thing to note here, I believe there is a chance Lazard might feel slighted in these parts, and may try to follow Davante and MVS out of town for a bigger payday. We ought to consider that.

Personally, I think he’s the celebrated new signing announced to start TC.
__

The Bisaccia Factor
Gutekunst has STACKED STs with far better 2-Way talents this year for Rich Bisaccia. I have the same sense on Defense, giving DC Joe Barry all the tools he needs to be successful there this year, -AND- on Offense, giving Aaron Rodgers all the tools he needs to be successful there, via FA (Sammy Watkins) and this last draft, where I believe he hit the position REMARKABLY well.

I have every confidence Bisaccia willl turn this unit around to be something special.

Rich Bisaccia’s ST units with the Raiders had 8 TDs on returns, 4 TDs on PR, 4 TDs on KR. His units there also had 18 blocked kicks. 10 FG Attempts, 5 Punt Attempts and 3 PAT Attempts.

Man, he’s the best thing at ST in Green Bay since Nolan Cromwell.
__

Is Bak Really Back?
All the more reason Gutekunst drafted 3 players who had exceptional OT credentials from Power 5 programs.

I have to think Gutekunst consulted Stenovich and Butkus on the best prospects in this draft for them to work with, and, man did he get some gems.

Al, you’re right to point this out, and it is tough to say when Bakhtiari returns healthy. All we can do is hope for the best there, and we may glean more on this if Gutekunst hits OT at roster cuts.
__

Never Be Content
Hot DAMN, if Rashan Gary isn’t one of the Packers most exciting players entering 2022. He’s gonna be spreading cheese all over the rest of the NFL this year.

This might be a really good testament to how Gutekunst holds to RAS scores. It is one thing to have talent to produce at the college level, but it is another thing to have the athleticism to develop into a dynamic, Blue Chip NFL player.

Rashan Gary is all of that. I suspect Christian Watson will follow a similar path in his development at WR.

There are others littered throughout these past 2-3 drafts & FA adds.

Great work again, Al. Thank you kindly.

-1 points
2
3
TXCHEESE's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:23 am

Comparing Watts and Gary is a fools errand. Watch Watts play and he races into the backfield ala CM3 disregarding the run and often times is taken out of the play doing that.

2 points
3
1
Johnblood27's picture

May 25, 2022 at 10:04 am

it sure would be nice to see TJ doing that in GB while King chases receivers in da 'burg.

4 points
5
1
PeteK's picture

May 25, 2022 at 12:04 pm

Clay avg about 55 tkls his first 7 seasons, Watt about 60. Gary had 47 last season. While all 3 had an occasional over rush (life of an OLB), they are all very good in all facets.

0 points
1
1
Since'61's picture

May 25, 2022 at 10:05 am

Safety Dance: this is the time for the Youngers players to absorb and learn their roles without taking any hits. It's the time for our coaches to communicate their messages and to build their relationships with the players. Hopefully everyone makes it to the mini-camp injury free.

Inside Hype: If Davis make an impact it's the better for the Packers. You never know where good players will come from.

Free Lazard: No excuses this season. Get open and catch the ball. "Nowhere to run baby, nowhere to hide."

Bisaccia Factor: Since our STs were ranked 32nd last season, I guess we have actually reached the point where it can't get any worse. The only way is up for Bisaccia. Right?? Maybe? We'll see.

Bak back: I won't worry about Bak until TC. If he's not ready to go by then we will need to move on in terms of getting ready for the season. Mini-camp might give us a clue as to where he's at.

Rashan Gary: When he was drafted I posted that the Packers will bring him along slowly which they did. I also posted that has all the tools to become a force and a game wrecker for the Packers. Well here we are. I would not want to be an OC trying to figure out how to block Gary, Clark, and P. Smith and probably Wyatt. You can't double team everybody. Our front seven should be able to consistently wreak havoc.

Great job again Al. Thanks, Since '61

5 points
5
0
marpag1's picture

May 25, 2022 at 01:53 pm

"When [Gary] was drafted I posted that the Packers will bring him along slowly which they did. I also posted that has all the tools to become a force and a game wrecker for the Packers.

My experience was a bit different. When the Packers were on the clock, I literally said, "Please.... any of these five guys are ok, but NOT RASHAN GARY."

LOL. Sorry. I'll show myself out....

Crap.

5 points
5
0
MooPack's picture

May 25, 2022 at 10:28 am

I hope Cobb doesn't stub his toe.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2022/05/25/randall-cobb-on-packers-rook...

"Cobb, now entering his 10th season in Green Bay and 12th overall in the NFL, said he is at OTAs to help set the standard in the wide receiver room for all the young players, including Watson."

2 points
2
0
Coldworld's picture

May 25, 2022 at 10:57 am

Now there is a leader …

6 points
6
0
LambeauPlain's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:21 am

Leadership starts with showing up.

Cobb is at OTAs to lead by example. Showing his new teammates the ropes.

Bakht is at OTAs knowing he was not going to be an active participant. But there he is, meeting the new guys in the room and developing relationships, sharing a vets knowledge.

Where is that other "leader"? Getting a previously scheduled "cleanse"? A guy who needs more "good looks" sure stacks up the bad looks for some reason.

5 points
7
2
Swisch's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:30 am

For the past couple of off seasons, it seems as if Aaron Rodgers has been continually going out of his way to put his reputation in Jeopardy.
I question that ;-).

4 points
6
2
Pantz_Burp's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:23 am

L-E-A-D-E-R

0 points
2
2
PeteK's picture

May 25, 2022 at 12:21 pm

Rookie WR could be thinking this after one of Rodgers's dirty looks or comments, " Maybe if you were coaching me up in May this wouldn't be happening now". However, maybe it's better if Rod isn't around this time of the year because he might shit his drawers with all that cleansing going on. Scenario: long pass followed by a low wet foghorn sound leading to clearing the field.

1 points
2
1
Pantz_Burp's picture

May 25, 2022 at 02:09 pm

*(see what I am doing folks?, I am trying to diffuse the comment by Pete by taking away #12 as the subject and circumventing the angst onto me):

Now I ain't sayin', just sayin'...I may be considered an expert with the foghorn sound and clearing the room.

For some reasons unknown, baby gooslings and a few turkey buzzards tend to confuse me with their real Pops..........

0 points
2
2
Pantz_Burp's picture

May 25, 2022 at 02:13 pm

*(now, unlike my willingness to shield #12 from the potential shatstorm...see above, I am no longer able to separate myself from my creative genius :)...see below):

GUARANTEED Pete, if I was a rookie WR and #12 overthrew since I "wasn't in the place I was supposed to be at the time" AND he gave me that look of disgust and disdain....I would jog back into the huddle and as #12 was in the middle of the play call...I would politely interject with a R-E-L-A-X and a wink. I would then sprint as fast as my lil' bow legs would carry me to section 133 row 1 cuz that would be my final chance for a Lambeau Leap. But, what a way to go out...."waiter, check please..." :D

1 points
1
0
Pantz_Burp's picture

May 25, 2022 at 04:17 pm

I am sorry, I need to grow up but Pete, I am still chuckling about your post and what may transpire right after a deep heave by QB1...yes, I need to look long and hard into the mirror.

I then think, hopefully our center doesn't practice the cleanse before a real game with a 342lb NT leannning on him and it's 82 degrees... uffda....

1 points
1
0
Pantz_Burp's picture

May 25, 2022 at 04:22 pm

Now there is a LEADER (shout out to Packer fans worldwide) indeed, now where's our QUARTerback?

Go, go, gooo

0 points
0
0
splitpea1's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:18 am

Very tactful and appropriate comment from Lazard....he's been a good soldier and there's nothing wrong with expressing a little individual enthusiasm.

I'm all for using better talent on the special teams (just as important as the coaching), but not THOSE guys, except in special situations. So hopefully they're just leading by example at first to get the ball rolling as far as attitude and emphasis goes. Here's an achievable goal: by the quarter point in the season, maybe the broadcasters will stop saying, "....Now the Packers have had their share of problems on special teams...." immediately before the opening kickoff. Wouldn't that be great?

4 points
4
0
Swisch's picture

May 25, 2022 at 11:23 am

Do other NFL teams with excellent special teams resort to using any of their starters on these special teams?
Is Bisaccia really all that great of a special teams coach if he has to use starters?
Perhaps the recently fired Mo Drayton is saying to himself, "Why didn't they let me use starters on special teams?"

-3 points
2
5
Swisch's picture

May 25, 2022 at 01:17 pm

I get downvotes, but not an answer to my questions -- which are sincere.
I'm not aware of other teams using starters on special teams in the past or the present. It seems like it doesn't happen, but maybe I'm missing something.
Last season in the playoff game against the 49ers, A. J. Dillon was injured playing special teams and unable to play the rest of the game.
So, to me at least, these questions are important.
***
It seems a reflex for at least a couple of people here at CHTV to give me downvotes; if I commented just on the weather, I'd almost expect some automatic negativity.
I can deal with it, but this kind of thing does drag down the discourse.
I like to think these fans are capable of more than emotional reactions to put people down. I like to think there is a potential for reasonableness and respect, even a measure of camaraderie that transcends our differences.

0 points
1
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Pantz_Burp's picture

May 25, 2022 at 01:59 pm

Swisch, I believe your question is fair (and made me pause to think) and a good one, so thanks. I didn't respond because I am not sure myself how many other teams use starters on their ST units. And if so, what percentage of teams, what percentage of players are starters on their STs and what was their ranking compared to other teams, etc. I really appreciate your style and hope you get some answers...

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Swisch's picture

May 25, 2022 at 02:40 pm

Thanks to you, PB.

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croatpackfan's picture

May 25, 2022 at 02:42 pm

Swisch, as I stated in the comment I do not believe it si seriuos consideration to use so many starters on ST during the season. It is just to show the guys from the bottom of the depth chart that ST are even with O and D and that it may be the easiest way to awoid cut before the season. Also, it is always good to have more player master the every aspect of the game in case of injury related situation in specific game...

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Swisch's picture

May 25, 2022 at 04:29 pm

Good points, croatpackfan.

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Coldworld's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:20 pm

I dug into this a while back and found no source that really collated the information usefully. Looking at a number of teams with good ST ratings, the answer is most do not use truly key starters most of the time. In key moments, teams may call on a star to return if he has that experience.

The Patriots are supposedly the poster boys for using starters and they do use some, but mostly as linemen and their regular “starters” on ST are usually actually rotation guys.

The conclusion I came to is that teams rarely use true starters except in very limited circumstances infrequently and when they do, it tends to be alto in line block or as a return threat when the team is desperate for a field changing play. Some teams do use guys who genuinely rotate in on O or D.

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Pantz_Burp's picture

May 25, 2022 at 09:28 pm

Thanks Cold for taking the time with your input, it is appreciated...I hope Swisch sees your response.

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Swisch's picture

May 26, 2022 at 10:07 am

Thanks, Cw, for substantially advancing the discussion.
I can see using rotational guys on special teams, and I can see using a starting wide receiver to return a kick in a key moment of a big game.
In my fifty-plus years as a fan, I've never seen starters used on special teams on a regular basis. I was wondering if this has begun to change recently, but it apparently not so much, if at all.
In any case, my hope with Bisaccia is that he is going to improve special teams by better coaching, not by using starters.
It would be an interesting article to delve more deeply into what separates the teams with excellent special teams from the rest of the NFL.

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Thegreatreynoldo's picture

May 26, 2022 at 05:30 am

Baltimore Ravens: Ranked #1 in STs in 2021.

16 of the top 22 ST guys played zero snaps otherwise.
35, 84, 155, 212, 319, 603 = snaps for the other six guys.
Ravens has some starting OL with 10% of ST snaps.
FB played some snaps and a lot of STs.
Verdict: No, the best ST unit doesn't play starters. It does have a lot of ST only guys, apparently.

MN is ranked 15th in 2021.
Top 6 ST guys also played some O or D snaps.
O or D snaps: 54, 54, 160, 211, 218, 376 (FB again).
Nick Vigil: 40.5% of STs, 719 snaps on D.
Xavier Woods (81 ST snaps) and 1208 on D.
DJ Woonum (952 snaps on D) played 17% of ST snaps.
MLB Kendricks (1000 snaps) played 16% of ST snaps (81).
DL Dalvin Tomlinson (600 snaps) played 16% of snaps.

Verdict: more of a mixed bag, but some real starters played about 5 ST snaps per game. So, not really willing to suggest they have starters playing a lot of STs.

Packers:

Burks/Barnes (206/262) played 300+ ST snaps.
Yiadom (82 all early or late) played 300+.
Lancaster, Lowry and Slaton with 130 to 145 ST snaps.
Rasul Douglas with 680 on D, 85 ST snaps.

Douglas was a starter, but otherwise, no starters. MN played 3 DL on STs a fair amount, so I guess Lancaster, Lowry and Slaton aren't unusual.

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greengold's picture

May 26, 2022 at 09:07 am

Great dig on that TGR. Should be interesting to see who Bisaccia puts in place on teams.

There’s a lot of college ST experience added from the last 2-3 drafts, especially this recent draft & FA signings. Looking forward to watching the improvement. I’m trusting we’ll be seeing that, after years of ineptitude.

What I like and appreciate most is the info dig. Many times, we can have some pretty staunch opinions on topics, and the statistical data may point in favor of a stance, or, it might mislead, or it may not be as great a factor as we might have originally thought.

***We don't have to always have the answers***, but the info shared by everyone on this site is always a big plus. Like in any problem solving, the more gray matter on it the better, and sharing info like this can foster great discussion & info/perspective shares.

I have to laugh a little, but, we are true fanatics. All of us. Packer fans are some of the best in the world, after having been around the country watching games, getting to know some at game meet-ups from other forums spanning decades, coast to coast. You learn a lot about other teams' fans doing that too. I'd say Dolphins fans range #2 behind the Packer fans. Both insanely knowledgeable fan bases. I digress.

It would be fun to see what the very best STs units throughout NFL history employed positionally, starters:backups - how they ratio out, how they changed situationally, or regular season vs. playoffs...

Based on what you've shared here, seems almost a bit fluid, requiring top shelf leadership, direction and decision making. Dynamic personnel options have to play into this as well. Neon Deon... Devon Hester... Desmond Howard... et al. Dedicated role players... Don Beebe. Travis Jervey. Steve Tasker. Billy "White Shoes" Johnson.

Ed Reed was one of the top gunners in NFL history...

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Swisch's picture

May 26, 2022 at 10:47 am

gg, I'm enthusiastically in with you as far as favoring a collaboration of thoughtful people helping to get to the best solutions. It can be an exciting and fruitful dynamic.
That's my ideal for CHTV, and America in general.
It seems there's a real good group of fans here at CHTV -- as staff and regular readers -- already having good discussions probing into the ways of the Packers.
With time, this synergy can grow and grow and grow.
As it is, I rely on CHTV for a vast extent of my understanding of the Packers.
***
I wouldn't expect someone like Gute or LaFleur to rely on a place like CHTV to make their decisions, but then again it could help them to check in on the perspective of us fanatics (as we use the term affectionately).
I have a true appreciation of experts who are humble enough to be wise, but there is a tendency for them to get separated from reality by not listening to ordinary folks.
The voice of the people to some degree can be, should be, an important consideration for experts and leaders. That doesn't mean they should always heed our offerings, but that they shouldn't dismiss them lightly, either.
There seems to be a sweet spot between elitist expertise from above and mob rule from below in which democracy flourishes as a happy medium.

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Swisch's picture

May 26, 2022 at 10:20 am

Thanks so much, TGR, for the knowledge.
I can see guys like Burks, Barnes, and Yiadom getting work on special teams. As backups, I would guess they would welcome more opportunities to get on the field.
Also, I can see guys like Lancaster, Lowry, Slaton and other big guys playing on special teams on either side of the line of scrimmage for field goal attempts and extra points.
I really want the Packers to emphasize special teams going forward, and that may validly include a reassessment of what kind of personnel to use; however, what I'd really like to see from Bisaccia is that it's his coaching that makes the difference.

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Pantz_Burp's picture

May 25, 2022 at 12:56 pm

And, let's give a BIG shout out to the security guards on Game Day at Lambeau Field! Not once, all season long did any of them confuse our other WRs (not wearing #17) as imposters roaming the field. Security never once tried to tackle them... attempting to escort them out of 1265 Lombardi Ave.

Thanks an Elephant TON! 👍🙏👌

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Swisch's picture

May 25, 2022 at 01:32 pm

Before last season, when there was talk of a last dance with the Packers, I didn't realize it was almost exclusively a dance between #12 and #17.
The first half of the meaningless final game against the Lions seems a pathetic demonstration of this mutual selfishness; and the last play against the 49ers in the playoffs -- as an exasperating missed opportunity -- seems the inevitable result.
Then, Amari Rodgers is denounced as a bust; MVS is bidden good riddance; and there is a reluctance to reward Allen Lazard with an extension.
Yet our management on the Packers readily gives #12 a mega-contract; and offer a mega-contract to #17.
How does a team win a Super Bowl with that kind of approach?

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Thegreatreynoldo's picture

May 26, 2022 at 05:40 am

Amari is a bust = fans, not the FO/coaches.
You wanted to pay MVS $10M per year?
Lazard may want to play on his RFA.

Adams is the best. Most teams pay the best.
AR is among the best. Ditto.

Adams tunnel vision is big on comment boards. What more can be said?

The approach of which you complain seems to translate to selfishness. Adams shouldn't have played against Detroit to break some records. AR is selfish, not nice, and a diva, and teams can't win Super Bowls with such a person. I'd have traded him if it really meant 3 first round picks plus anything more, but I would admit doing that means not winning a super bowl anytime soon.

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greengold's picture

May 26, 2022 at 08:03 am

So much I agree with here, but I struggle with the last part, in theory. With a top defense, and an adherence to scheme in play, plus JL being in Year 3… I believe this team could evolve into a true contender.

Lazard may, indeed, play that RFA out. Been thinking same for a while.

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PatrickGB's picture

May 25, 2022 at 03:30 pm

If they get around to testing Bakh’s knee they will probably find that it’s not water in the knee…it’s beer!

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Pantz_Burp's picture

May 25, 2022 at 05:25 pm

I know one thing PatrickGB, if Bakh can come back healthy and make it onto the field for a regular season game, I hope they crank Back in the Saddle by Aerosmith at Lambeau Field.

Keeping hope, but I am concerned. Yeah, he can pound the brewskis at Buck's games like nothing. :)

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Grandfathered's picture

May 25, 2022 at 07:41 pm

I don't know Al, usually there is early hype about a young player. I end up rooting for them usally just because of it. Speaking of Bak and injuries/training in general, the one thing I can think of that would make CHTV better would be to recruit a medical MD or sports trainer to write a regular column. Maybe generalized injury issues, prognosises, and medical advancements and treatments of pro football injuries/prevention. With an emphasis on the Pack, of course.

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