Hello Wisconsin: All I Want for Christmas is an NFL-Caliber Defensive Coordinator
The greatest Christmas gift would be a defense that is actually competent.
By TimBackes
Ho ho ho! I hope you’ve all been good this year. But if not, don’t worry, because all the coal in the world is being dumped into Joe Barry’s stocking this week, so you’re in the clear.
For two weeks in a row, the Green Bay Packers defense, under the absurdly incompetent direction of Joe “0-16 Lions” Barry, have given up historic, career days to a pair of bad quarterbacks that earned them media praise and league awards.
It’s been past time for Joe Barry to lose his job for an extremely long time now, and with Matt LaFleur deciding to stick with Barry for the rest of the season, he’s indicating that consistency is more important than trying something to produce better results.
After this most recent vomit-inducing performance by the defense (which I got to witness live and in person, my first time seeing a loss at Lambeau Field), there is little reason to believe Barry will be back in 2024.
But there is also no reason he should be coaching for the rest of the way in 2023. Firing Barry would be far from the kind of scapegoating move midseason coordinator hires often are; he’s been obviously horrible at his job since long before he was hired by LaFleur to run the team’s defense.
It is almost out of the realm of mathematical possibility that the Packers would be worse for eliminating Barry. We’re talking about legitimately bad players putting up video game numbers now on a weekly basis. Barry has shown absolutely no ability or interest to adjust his scheme or to find ways to prevent wide receivers from being wide open on every single play.
I refuse to believe that anyone on the Packers would be worse than Barry, who has created one of the league’s worst defenses. Could they be equally bad? Maybe, but it’s at least worth trying something, especially when you still have a 93% chance of making the playoffs if you win the rest of your games.
This is a team that currently ranks 11th in offense by DVOA, which is one of the best single stats we have to judge the overall quality of a unit. Jordan Love returned to form with an overall strong (though imperfect) showing, but the defense sucked the life out of the stadium every time they took the field.
Matt LaFleur is a good offensive coach, but his loyalty could be his downfall. There is really no benefit to keeping Barry. The only one I can feasibly think of, consistency, is outweighed by just how terrible his defenses are, and the fact that it sure FEELS like the players are getting frustrated (cryptic online posts, players’ meetings, etc.).
It sends a bad message to keep letting Barry control the defense when he is setting his unit and entire team up for failure every single week.
It should also be noted that extended play under a coach as horrifically inept as Barry can severely damage a player’s career. It’s almost impossible to look good when you and your teammates are being metaphorically kneecapped by the playcalling of a football buffoon. These are guys who are not developing, and who will not get contracts they could potentially earn if they had coaching that actually put them in positions to succeed.
One example I keep coming back to: what would Darnell Savage’s career look like if Barry had continued to use him in the way Mike Pettine had been in 2020? Savage looked like a star in the making, but three years under Barry have turned him into a shell of the player he was in college and the player he looked like he could become at the pro level.
Joe Barry is a football black hole; everyone whose career touches his will ultimately be sucked into the void. LaFleur is willingly keeping this toxic entity on his staff at the expense of a chance to go to the playoffs in the team’s first year with a brand new quarterback and an incredibly young, promising offense.
Every single person on the planet not named Matt LaFleur sees Barry is a hopeless case. His continued presence in the halls of 1265 Lombardi Ave. is inexcusable.
Matt LaFleur is a strong offensive coach. If he were a strong head coach, he’d fire Barry now and try to give the team something fresh for the remainder of the season, rather than taking the easy, scared route of letting Barry’s contract run out at the end of the season.
Either act to improve your football team, or let Barry knock you out of the playoff hunt entirely, damaging the morale of your team while he’s at it. Seems like a pretty easy choice to me.
Wisconsin Beer of the Week
This past Saturday I had some time to kill between a wedding ceremony and a wedding reception. What better way to pass the time than at a brewery?
I called up a friend of mine who lived relatively near the wedding site, and he had already been planning on heading over to Good City Brewing on Milwaukee’s east side for the release of their annual barrel aged stout, Density, plus a couple variants. I love beer in all of its forms, and especially barrel-aged stouts fresh out of the keg, so I of course told him I would meet him there.
I don’t really drink a whole lot of Good City beer; it’s not that it’s not good, but its flagships don’t really stand out to me. Plus, I don’t get up to the east side a whole lot, and the other location is in the Deer District, which isn’t exactly convenient to get to via car. I’d been to Good City’s east side location (its original spot) on a couple previous occasions, but it’s been a few years (pre COVID).
We ordered some cheese curds, a big soft pretzel (came with creamy mustard sauce, beer cheese, and cajun popcorn) and a couple flights of the three Density beers. Here’s what it included:
-2023 Density: Imperial Stout aged in Buffalo Trace Bourbon barrels for 24 months
-2023 Trifecta Density: Imperial Stout aged in cabernet sauvignon bourbon barrels
-2023 Coconut Density: Imperial Stout aged in bourbon barrels for 24 months with toasted coconut
Of these, my favorite was the Trifecta Density, and I also really enjoyed the standard density. There was a sweetness and a mead-like smoothness in the Trifecta that worked really well with the dark malts and bourbon flavor, and it was quite enjoyable. The standard Density was good as expected; it’s your standard barrel aged stout but with a really excellent mouthfeel and depth of flavor.
The Coconut Density disappointed a bit; the coconut flavor was not very noticeable. That’s not necessarily always a bad thing, as sometimes it can overpower the flavor of the stout, but the best editions I’ve had of barrel aged coconut stouts (1840’s brilliant Hawaiian Drinking Chocolate being the gold standard) usually manage to find the perfect balance of how noticeable the coconut flavor is in the beer.
Overall it was an enjoyable experience at Good City, and I even tried a couple other beers while I was there (their Beam red IPA was quite enjoyable).
The visit made me think I have perhaps underrated Good City. At the very least, their beer requires further study, which I intend to do.
Once again, Jordan Love shows he is the one
The record doesn’t look great for the Packers this year, but the one thing we can take from this year that is a huge victory: Jordan Love is clearly the guy.
It’s hard to understate how impressive Love has been, given the circumstances. He’s well on his way for a 4,000 yard, 30 touchdown season and a fairly clearcut top 10 season among the 2023 NFL quarterbacks. If you would have told Packer fans that before the season started, they’d have been ecstatic.
What’s more exciting is that there is still plenty of growth ahead. Already we’ve seen some significant improvements in aspects of Love’s game throughout this year (deep ball, for example). When you consider how much Aaron Rodgers improved from his 2008 to his 2009 season, it shows just how much a player in Love’s situation can grow in a relatively short amount of time.
Since week 9, Love has been one of the most efficient quarterbacks in the game in a wide variety of metrics. He’s done this despite:
-A significant lack of complementary football from the defense
-Injuries keeping out key playmakers (Christian Watson, Luke Musgrave, Aaron Jones, occasionally others)
-An offensive line that has taken a long time to settle in and is still doing so
-A great deal of inexperience surrounding him, especially among the pass catchers
Love has more than earned an extension after the season, and hopefully he’s got a long career ahead of him in the green and gold. The flashes of physical excellence we’ve seen (that touchdown throw to Reed this week is one only a handful of QBs can make) have been becoming more frequent, and he has settled into the NFL game very nicely. He makes good reads, generally remains calm, and is seeing the field.
I predicted before the season that, by the time the season was over, every fanbase in the NFC North would (even if they don’t want to admit it) trade their QB for Jordan Love.
I think that’s come true.
Around the NFC North
As always, it’s time to go around the NFC North.
- The CHICAGO BEARS have had definite signs of improvement throughout the year, but those have mostly come on the defensive side of the ball. This is thanks in large part to the addition of Montez Sweat, who has been a bigger addition than I would have expected. On offense, however, this team still has a lot to figure out, and on a day where the Bears absolutely had a chance to beat a good Browns team on the road, Justin Fields was absolutely atrocious. It is becoming clearer with each passing week that the Bears must move on from him with the opportunity to select a quarterback high.
- The DETROIT LIONS took care of business against a Broncos team that has now cooled off after an out-of-nowhere hot streak. They even had Sean Payton screaming at Russell Wilson midway through the game. The big question throughout the rest of the season for the Lions is simply going to be whether they’re actually capable of playing winning football against tougher competition in the playoffs. Until then, we’re not going to learn anything new about this team.
- The MINNESOTA VIKINGS are barely hanging on to their chances at the playoffs while a whole host of teams right with and behind them are snarling at the opportunity to jump in front of them. This isn’t a team that’s beating anyone in January, so they may as well just get out of the way and embrace the inevitable.
Looking ahead at potential draft or free agency needs
Obviously, the biggest need the Packers have going into the offseason will be a new defensive coordinator. But we’re also starting to see a pretty clear indication of the positions the Packers are going to need to target in the draft and/or free agency.
- Safety: Darnell Savage almost certainly won’t be back. Everyone else is just a guy. The Packers need to invest in this position, because the middle of the field on defense has been bad and the passing defense has been brutal.
- Offensive line: There are a couple starting positions on the offensive line that could be upgraded. You always want to take at least one or two players on the line just because there’s always going to be a need for reliable line players, but with the questionable future of David Bakhtiari, the lack of reliability from Jon Runyan, and the up and down season for Josh Myers, there are some potentials for upgrades.
- Inside linebacker: Early this season, Quay Walker was the Packers’ best player on defense. He’s taken some steps back, but he could still be a key part of the Packers’ defense for a long time with the right coordinator. De’Vondre Campbell, on the other hand, has been looking old and slow. And I love the guy. But he’s been a liability on defense and has not resembled the guy who was an all pro just a couple years ago. The Packers may look to get out of that contract after this season.
- Cornerback: Hard to believe we’re here again saying this is a need, but we have no idea what Eric Stokes will bring to the table for the future, and the whole situation with Jaire Alexander this season has just been odd. Carrington Valentine has been much better than expected, but he still has a lot of growing to do. Corner is a premium position in the NFL, and the Packers need some consistency.
- Running back: Aaron Jones will almost certainly not be back, given his age, his cap number, and his recent injury history. I think the Packers will bring back AJ Dillon on a second contract… as a backup. They’ll look to the draft or maybe to a versatile veteran if one comes available.
To me, this seems to be the pretty clear top five areas of need (not necessarily in the order presented).
THIS or THAT in Mr. Backes’s room: Week 16 Update
As I’ve done the last several weeks, I’m going to give a quick update as to the latest THIS or THAT polls in my classroom.
Without further ado:
- Starbucks defeated Dunkin Donuts
- Cold lunch defeated hot lunch
- Out to dinner defeated out to brunch
- Console gaming defeated PC gaming
- Mild salsa barely edged out spicy salsa
If you have additional THIS or THAT prompts you’d like to poll my high schoolers with, give your ideas in the comments! I’ve pulled a few from the comments so far.
Predictions for Packers vs. Panthers and Week 16
Bryce Young has yet to look like he belongs in the NFL, and the Panthers have been comfortably the worst team in the league for the entire season. If the Packers find a way to lose this one, not only should Joe Barry be forced to walk home (where he will promptly learn he’s been fired), but Matt LaFleur should feel the heat as well for standing by him.
LAST WEEK: 8-8
SEASON TO DATE: 135-88
THIS WEEK’S PICKS:
RAMS over Saints
BENGALS over Steelers
BILLS over Chargers
COMMANDERS over Jets
LIONS over Vikings
BROWNS over Texans
PACKERS over Panthers
SEAHAWKS over Titans
COLTS over falcons
JAGUARS over Buccaneers
DOLPHINS over Cowboys
BEARS over Cardinals
BRONCOS over Patriots
CHIEFS over Raiders
EAGLES over Giants
49ERS over Ravens
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHEESEHEAD NATION WEEKLY NEWSLETTER HERE.
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Tim Backes is a lifelong Packer fan and a contributor to CheeseheadTV. Follow him on Twitter @timbackes for his Packer takes, random musings and Untappd beer check-ins.
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Comments (124)
Cheezehead72
December 21, 2023 at 06:16 am
Last year I asked Santa for Rodgers to be gone and he came through for me. Yes I am asking him for Berry to go away and yes I would like a above average DC to replace him.
Now I have also requested that MM, Gute, and MLF are not back next year but I know even that Santa is very good and usually provides what you ask for I also realize that he cannot do everything. I guess I will just stick with having a new DC next year and see what happens.
WD
December 21, 2023 at 07:43 am
I agree that there needs to be a change with the DC. That said, making him the scapegoat for all the problems is like blaming Trump for all the problems in the universe. It will not automatically change the defense for the better. There has to be at least some accountability by the players themselves, not to mention other specific coaches who work with the defensive players. Moreover, on the defense there seems to be a fundamental tackling problem in addition to the blown coverage. On another note, I hear the old coach of the Badger football team might be available. Leonard I believe. Just sayin.
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 08:30 am
Who is making Barry the scapegoat for "all the problems"? Certainly not most here. Tim did not in his article. Barry is being made accountable for a job he is failing at...for the 7th consecutive year as DC.
MLF has huge culpability in this soft, prevent (the win) defense.
He hired Barry for some weird, unknown reason. He retained him for "continuity's sake", ostensibly desiring more of the same incompetence for another weird, unknown reason when top tier DC coaching candidates were available.
Brian Flores did "automatically change the defense for the better" for the Ugly Purple with far less talent than Barry has and has kept them in the playoff hunt. Flores as Packer DC would likely have helped MLF and the Packers be Playoff Clinchers by now.
Coaching matters and is the great mover of teams up...or DOWN in the parity filled NFL. Both MLF and Barry are in the "scapegoat" herd. And so is Acting GM Mark Murphy who approved the Barry hire and agreed to prevent the fire.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 21, 2023 at 01:53 pm
LP,
"He hired Barry for some weird, unknown reason."
Yesterday I saw someone here claim to know why. Apparently MLF said whenever he faced a JB defense he never knew what to expect, and it was very hard to play against him.
I'm not vouching for the accuracy of the claim, I just found it interesting.
Cheezehead72
December 21, 2023 at 08:44 am
I am not blaming Berry for all the problems. I blame Berry for not instituting a get in your face, hard hitting, and aggressive defense. He plays a soft zone because he is scared of taking chances.
I blame MLF for hiring in experienced coaches. And being a HC/OC/playcaller because we see he is not capable of all the extra work and responsibility. I also blame him for hiring Berry and keeping Berry. He should have hire Leonard last year. Yes I know Leonard may have declined but I do not see it. Leonard had a hard hitting aggressive defense in Wisconsin and he would have fit what we needed. Leonard is still availble. He was a defensive consultant for the Univ of Illinios this year. Not sure how long his contract is and if he can get out of it.
I blame Gute for some of his draft picks or some he has not drafted even though he did have some good picks. I also blame him on his handling of the Rodgers situation last year. Now I know MM probably forced him to keep Rodgers and offer that contract to give Rodgers the opportunity to fleece the Packers organization. That leads me to the next one.
I blame MM for the Rodgers situation and hiring MLF and allowing MLF to be the HC/OC/playcaller. He should have hired a HC that was going to bea HC and hire good coordinators. But just like MM has a power trip he hired a HC that has a power trip.
golfpacker1
December 21, 2023 at 09:43 pm
Lets keep Trump off this website so all of us Packer fans can get along.
Cheezehead72
December 21, 2023 at 06:18 am
I wonder if the Packers tried to sign Adrian Amos after the Jets released him. I did not hear anything and the Texans signed him. Not sure what the story was. Maybe one of you guys with much more knowledge can enlighten us.
Guam
December 21, 2023 at 08:10 am
Amos was fading his last year with the Packers and was not good with the Jets this year. My guess is the Packers believe he has nothing left in the tank.
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 08:41 am
Almost every D player fades under Barry Ball.
Coldworld
December 21, 2023 at 09:28 am
Amos has a 72 grade from PFF. His grade in ‘21 was 74. Last year it was 54. PFF isn’t gospel, but it’s a reasonable indicia of general play level, that’s with no time in the Jets D prior to the season.
He wanted out when the player injuries that resulted in his late signing cut his playing time at a position the Jets had felt good about. He’d not been great but he’s been good when out there.
I can see us wanting to shepherd cap, and I certainly do t think he changes any outcome since he was released if he came here, but I think we would have found him an upgrade. Ford has our best rating at 69. Owens’ is 57 (he can’t cover) and Savage is rated at 65, and has missed time recently.
That said, it’s quite possible had no interest in returning. Barry’s system has not been safety friendly. His performance this year will have him playing somewhere next year. A stint on our D could easily have derailed that.
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 08:39 am
I don't have any knowledge on Amos, who like Savage, declined in his production under Barry. I don't think he would entertain a return to Barry Ball...especially since the Texans are not only in the playoff hunt but also a chance to win their division.
NFLfan
December 21, 2023 at 09:37 am
He only played several games and did not impress.
HarryHodag
December 21, 2023 at 06:54 am
I was watching NFL Live on ESPN and "Professor" Orlovsky and the crew were talking about the Bears replacing Justin Fields. I was yelling at the TV, "put him behind the 49'ers offensive line and see if you want to replace him'. Fields is a decent quarterback but the geniuses in Chicago can't seem to find him quality protection. Most TV football shows are hyper focused on the quarterbacks without talking context. The Bears also lost David Montgomery and he's shown what he could do behind a good offensive line in Detroit.
It all starts in the trenches.
Cheezehead72
December 21, 2023 at 07:09 am
I agree. The Bears would be foolish with drafting a QB in the first round. They should draft Harrison with their first pick and trade down if they think they can get him later. Then they should work on the OL.
Build a team around fields. He has shown improvement.
Guam
December 21, 2023 at 08:13 am
The Bears can get Harrison and a new QB. They have their own #1 plus Carolina's #1 (which may be the first pick overall). I have no idea if Fields is a starting level QB or not, but the Bears have options if they want to go after a new QB.
WestCoastPackerBacker
December 21, 2023 at 10:57 am
If the guys coming out are considered NFL ready, with a higher ceiling than Fields, then they have to pull the trigger on a new QB and get what they can for Fields. Getting such high draft picks is rare and they should absolutely use it to improve the most important position in football. Having said that, I don't want to face a super talented young QB in the NFC north 2x a year, so I hope they stick with Fields.
Vachio
December 21, 2023 at 06:57 am
I hope Bryce Young is clearing out a spot on his mantle for the NFC Offensive Player of the Week award he's about to receive. Even if he doesn't make it a 3-peat for QBs facing the Packers defense, I'm willing to bet he has the best game of his career this week.
Guam
December 21, 2023 at 08:15 am
LOL! Sad but likely true Vachio!
Vachio
December 21, 2023 at 10:19 am
It's a safe assumption, unfortunately, and a very troubling trend. You look at the bad QBs around the NFL since Barry became DC and almost across the board, their best games have come against the Packers defense. Barry has made a lot of practice squad level guys look like they belong in Canton.
cheezyone
December 21, 2023 at 07:01 am
As much as I didn't care for Dom Capers or Mike Pettine, I think either one would be better than Joe Barry.
Cheezehead72
December 21, 2023 at 07:11 am
I will go one better. I believe I might be better and I have never coached while not sitting on my couch or recliner.
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 10:08 am
Capers was a great DC. that was until the game basically passed him by. But when he first came to GB, he transformed the defense into a great defense. Of course it helps when you have some all pro's on the team. But the style of defense he ran was really, really good!
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 10:46 am
Capers best D was 2010, year 2 in his Packer tenure.
He did not coach complimentary D in 2011 while 15-1 Packers scored 30 or more points in 11 games. The offense still had to "hold on" for 6 one score wins. The O was unstoppable in most games in spite of the leaky D.
But then the D gave up the one and done playoff game to the 9-7 Giants, losing 37-20 when the O had an uncharacteristically off day.
Capers D was really, really good for opposing O coordinators who had his playbook and tendencies down cold by 2011. His exotic, constant subbing and personnel groupings designed to confuse the opponent mostly confused his own players.
Capers did not change to the changing NFL game.
Capers as Packers DC had very poor playoff performances after 2010. You can look it up. And like MLF...McCarthy stubbornly stuck with him until he was told to finally fire him after 2017.
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 01:17 pm
To be fair they lost Collins that year and it changed everything.
Collins was special and changed the way they could play the whole defense. I believe Jenkins left in the offseason that year as well.
WestCoastPackerBacker
December 21, 2023 at 11:32 am
Hey Dom Capers coached that defense right through the playoffs into a Super Bowl win, despite having Jarrett Bush, a special teamer, at CB in the Super Bowl, and despite having street free agent Howard Green on the D-line and a nobody UDFA named Frank Zombo opposite Clay Matthews as a pass rusher. Woodson broke his collarbone but that didn't break the defense.
When Capers D really went downhill was after the new Collective Bargaining agreement in 2011 which severely cut back the off season practice time, in season practices, and training camp two-a-days. McCarthy's famed QB school was decimated and I think there was not time to teach Capers' complicated scheme to the young players.
stockholder
December 21, 2023 at 07:13 am
We must never think that we can solve one crisis by condoning another.
Firing Barry won’t change the 3-4-4 failures.
When MLF was hired, he was forced to keep Pettine.
And if Mlf is to be that coach everyone wanted after Rodgers.
The same must be True, with changes to this Defense.
MLF had to have his own ideas about the Defense.
He must now go back to his first day when he took the job.
And upper management, must keep their noses out.
If he can’t do what he wants, they’ll fire him sure.
Looking Ahead: As long as MLF is here. Love will be here.
Dillion is not what this offense needs.
Turtles may win the race. But who has time to watch it.
Good Bye Savage. - I’ll take the comp. And Owens.
Until the packers go big, They will go Home.
OL Bahk and Runyan have No future in GB.
The Future is now for this OL.
Save the money and draft it.
Yes - Faster LBs are a must. Just convince Gute.
If there is a Franchise guy available. I hope we draft him.
The best GMs know how to bring in the best, regardless
Of Depth.
Cheezehead72
December 21, 2023 at 07:45 am
When I started reading your comment I was heading for the thumbs down but I agree with all but the first paragraph. There is nothing wrong with a 3-4 defense if you have the right players and a scheme that fits the players. The Packers had average or better defenses with the 3-4 when they played mainly man coverage. The issue with playing man is with running QBs the guys in coverage are not watching the QB. So the DC must make sure he is switching Berry tends to lean on zone and when he has played more man the defense has been better.
Also with a 3-4 a team will have more LBs that can be used on STs.
I do not believe MLF was forced to keep Berry last year. he decided to give him another year and Berry failed. MLF once again made a bad decision. Which if you listen to his press conferences he makes a lot of bad decisions. We need a HC that makes good decisions.
Coldworld
December 21, 2023 at 08:20 am
LaFleur wanted a system. He moved Pettine away from attack to bend and not break big play prevention. When that didn’t work he went looking specifically for a system. He got it. That whole philosophy has issues, but Barry’s version has consistently been worse than others.
Like you, I don’t think 4:3 is the answer necessarily, but the fact is a fundamental change in philosophy and approach is. It’s not just incompetence, it’s a broader issue. Getting rid of Barry is necessary and overdue, but it doesn’t excite me.
Improvement that means something worthwhile needs a change of approach and mindset not just of an individual or even of scheme. Perhaps it’s time for a defensive head coach and a young, innovative OC who can just focus on the young talent to break out of the last 10 years of D inadequacy.
Keeping Barry yet again suggests to me that we might get a less bad coordinator perhaps but still the same flawed approach to D. It also is deflecting from other issues, such as the OL. How many season ending coaching decisions is a Head Coach entitled to get away with? Not this many. Let’s get off the merry-go-round.
PeteK
December 21, 2023 at 08:42 am
Yes, under Pettine we were almost at the top in the league in big plays allowed, but now we're the opposite. It's all about balance in all facets of this game.
Bitternotsour
December 21, 2023 at 08:45 am
How much base D do the Packers actually play? 4-3, 3-4, honestly almost every defense in football is doing hybridized alignments. Preston Smith is a mighty big man for an outside linebacker, and in effect often functions as a defensive end.
I guess my point is that this particular iteration of the Packers D is as you note, LaFleur's. This is his guy. This is his system. This is the personality he chose to run the D. A person might effectively argue that the D has been done no favors by the offense. The scoring defense has actually been pretty OK. All the coaching issues emanate from the head coach. All three phases. Does anyone anywhere honestly believe that these players would run through a wall for LaFleur. McCarthy built a culture (that Aaron effectively undermined), but a culture. Bad luck? No one bitched. Raw Deal, no one bitched. It was a team that dusted itself off and got back to work. I just don't see that any longer.
stockholder
December 21, 2023 at 10:28 am
CW - Pettine moved away because his Defense needed More.
I'm sure he saw greatness in the Smiths. But the failure was Ibs.
It's been 15 years of Defensive changes.
But has the 3-4-4 become to complicated after 3 Dcs?
Keeping Barry was a step to get what Pettine didn't.
And I want you to pay close attention to this.
In 2008 Kampman led the 4-3-4 in sacks.
In comes Capers 3-4-4, and he's playing OLB.
Could he tackle and take the proper angels of a LB?
No DE can!!! Do you understand that.??
The 2010 Defense had Raji who led the NTs in Sacks.
We don't have that with Slayton.
And we don't have Hawk, CM#, Bishop,etc for tackling.
We have Des. Good players in Van Ess, Gary ,and a slower P. Smith.
But their not LBS, This is on Gute.
But if you want the jump to a 2010 Defense.
It will take LBS that tackle. Not power rushers.
Speed that can blitz. The ILBs have No Sacks.
This was never truer until CM3 played ILB.
I don't care if they keep Barry or not.
I'm saying the Packers Defense doesn't need Des
playing LB.
Coldworld
December 21, 2023 at 11:11 am
The difference is not really in the front, but in how the D uses its players. Few teams really play 4:3 or 3:4 in the sense that they did in 2008. It’s what coaches want and how they want to use them and what they won’t do.
Does Barry use what he has rationally as a whole? Does he use individuals to strengths? Does he combine individuals whose strengths add to each other or not? I think he does not do those things well. Others do better with this scheme essentially, but I think you are right to the extent that that scheme itself seems to have been figured out, rather as Capers’ was.
We need a change in philosophy on D and we need a better coordinator to realize it, not one, but both are required. So yes, schematic change, personnel usage changes are necessary, but so is a less inept leader.
jannesbjornson
December 21, 2023 at 08:37 am
No doubt, but Walker has to go. He is clueless and why wasn't this 4.58 guy covering the WR cross routes? McDuffie can stay, draft a guy and add a FA. Even if Campbell heals, he will not play for the fraud Barry. McFadden is starting for the Giants ( Rd 5) and getting the job done. Get Big Ten LBs. The Bears have two Badger LBs. Add a veteran safety
who knows the game and team him with Johnson. As is my bias, I would clean haus. LaFleur is leaving a heavy sherman musk around 1265 Lombardi Ave.
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 08:58 am
Barry, the supposedly knowledgeable LB coach (overrated), is totally misusing Walker (and most of the other talent) on his prevent (the win) defense.
Barry has the big, fast, 2nd year LB playing deep, standing still at the snap, reading what to do, and if a pass...covering a 4.3 WR with his 4.6 speed from a dead stop...or running to the ball carrier, to at best arrive after a 5+ yard gain.
Do you ever see the big, fast first rounder attacking the LOS? Blitzing?
Walker was a disrupter at Georgia...especially pressuring the QB in blitz packages. Not in Packerland. Barry has him playing like a passive Safety.
jannesbjornson
December 21, 2023 at 09:15 am
Walker cannot diagnose and has poor football instincts. The Bulldogs D lines kept their LBs free to roam almost like a chaos run and fill. In the NFL he has been exposed and he is not a hitter, playing downhill. Campbell has to line the guy up and he still doesn't get it. When Barry had him dog from the A gap , he was stoned and he didn't seem to move past the OT in edge rush. Wasted investment.
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 09:43 am
You are critiquing Walker based on what his DC is asking him to do. Being a passive, prevent, zone ILB is exactly his role in Barry Ball.
He can certainly hit and can tackle. Barry just believes the big, fast ILB must play his zone in his prevent pap, Walkers individual skills be damned. It is the same with Alexander, one of the best press corners in the NFL is told to play zone.
When did you last see Walker used blitz/pressure packages? He has regressed under Barry. Most D players do.
jannesbjornson
December 21, 2023 at 10:16 am
Belichick needed a LB. He passed over Walker. He did his homework. Read 'em and weep. For a #22 pick, not a playmaker. Yes, Barry does know LBs. He trained a couple into Pro Bowlers. It is all on the Film.
barutanseijin
December 21, 2023 at 02:33 pm
Best to save your breath. These guys will figure it out after Barry is gone and Walker is still lining up in the wrong place and still arriving where he needs to be moments too late.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 23, 2023 at 10:18 am
LP,
#7 Quay has in fact attacked the LOS and made tackles for loss. It's what he's best at, IMHO. He's not used like that nearly enough, and that's part of JB's non-aggressive overall approach. JB lied when he told his players that he would become more aggressive, just as everyone here knew he wouldn't follow through with that promise.
A defense that plays catch, only stopping plays after they've already gotten a first down, is not likely to win in the NFL.
stockholder
December 21, 2023 at 08:58 pm
No jB- I disagree with you here.
Walker has led the team in tackles.
But keep this in mind. AJ HAWK.
Drafted in the top 10 and moved inside.
Isn't Walker really better?
And think what happen to CM3 when they moved him inside.
Walker does have a bad shoulder.
Gute refused to draft ILBs. high until Walker.
packer132
December 21, 2023 at 09:10 am
SH: Management has kept their nose out of the team, as LaFleur makes the calls, hires (won't fire) coaches. After 14 games, Matt still is befuddled at press conferences and says he needs to do better. We have heard that 50 times already. Of course, Bakhtiari is done. The team is still getting out of the ridiculous contract for Rodgers. 2024 is very promising will all the early draft picks. OL and safety will be top priorities. Gute signed a fast Walker, and he is still growing in his 2nd season. Walker is one of the fastest LB's in that draft class. The GM has assembled a very good team if you look at the roster. What is needed are coaches who demand fundamentals (tackling, discipline, very few penalties, and knowing the play book. How can this team beat KC and Detroit and then not show up to win against two sub teams? The head coach does not have them ready. Simple
stockholder
December 21, 2023 at 10:57 am
The Gm has in your eyes, but he made the same mistakes
since 2010.
What happened to Z. Smith,Nick Perry and Julius Peppers?
Think about that While the ILB position was a a failure.
With slower Des turned into LBs.
It puts more pressure on the safeties to tackle.
The pass rush was there. But the Defense against the run isn't!
You can't have small body safeties be LBs.
packer132
December 21, 2023 at 08:14 pm
Gute has only been the GM since 2018. Thompson was the GM from 2010-2017. Julius Peppers? He had a few good years with the Pack at the end of his career. So did Smith. What does that have to do with anything? Funny how to pick and choose things that make no sense.
stockholder
December 21, 2023 at 08:46 pm
Read the above comments and you'll know why.
Think hard, beyond the " No sense bash "-
In 2010 Hawk And CM3 were the 3-4-4 Lbs
Why spend such High draft picks on Outside LBs.??
And dump Kampman.?
Capers Idea of Des, wrecked TTs Best First draft thoughts.
But Did TT want Peppers for the DL?.
The GMs and Des still have not gotten back to the idea of
what made the 2010 great.
Moving Raji was a mistake. Nothing worked when the LBs
foursome split up. TT was sick.. And Capers ideas
still have had a adverse effect.
The idea changed from Defense to Pass Rush
And Capers wrecked Datone Jones!
LeotisHarris
December 21, 2023 at 09:30 pm
Wow, sh, that is indeed a rabbit hole you've created and then fallen into headlong. It's interesting, and I'll play along. So, what's the answer? Let's stipulate all your blame can be affixed to the targets you consistently identify. Now what? Burn some sage to rid the box of the specter of Dom's toupee and ideas? You know, a good smudging? Tar and feather Gute, and make him live in Clark County? Bring Aaron back and let him dedicate his own bronze likeness between Curly and Vince, then lead the team to a final Super Bowl as a 40 year-old QB? Free beer?
Here are the keys. You're now in charge. What steps do you take to right the Packers' ship and create a successful front office, and football team going forward. The past is gone. Start anew.
Bitternotsour
December 21, 2023 at 10:33 pm
Stockholder's work is best read as aleatory, not narrative or for that matter sensible. Theirs' is a game that has no intellectual component whatsoever. They are the Cheesehead William S. Burrows, through Clockwork Orange's Dim. They are our Brian Eno, casting out the Oblique Strategy cards. Sadly they keep turning up - "Honour thy error as a hidden intention."
stockholder
December 22, 2023 at 09:59 pm
Jc Tretter takes over for Murphy.
Elliot Wolf is the new GM.
MLf stays as coach.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 23, 2023 at 10:22 am
SM,
those are fair points. This team would greatly benefit from a hybrid LB/S.
SinceLombardi
December 21, 2023 at 07:17 am
Two years removed from Mo Drayton preventing us from a trip to the Super Bowl, we now are more than likely not going to make a Wild Card because of Joe Barry.
The common denominator? Matt LaFleur. His assistant picks are terrible. His press conferences are downright embarrassing. How many more times will this scenario play out under MLF?
Yes he is a pretty good offensive coach. But he also has many short comings. His teams get pushed around, they a mistake prone, they are heavily penalized, and the offense often disappears at key points in a game.
Is he worth it? Did he get off to a fast start because he had three of the best offensive weapons in the NFL ( Rodgers/Adams/Jones)?
Seems like there are other qualified coaches out there ( see Colts/Texans) that know how to win.
As horrible as Joe Barry is we are fooling ourselves if we think replacing him will somehow make the Packers instant winners. There are a lot of other problems… not the least of whic is a guy named Matt LaFleur who will be picking Barry’s replacement.
This is not the Lynn Dickey led Packers that lit up the scoreboard and only needed a respectable defense to become a really good team. No, it runs deeper than that.
Cheezehead72
December 21, 2023 at 08:12 am
I agree but we are stuck with MLF and up for next season. Our only hope is that the Packers B of D selects MM's replacement right after the 2024 season and that MM will allow the new President to run the show and make all the decisions and he is just allowed to stay until June-July or whenever he turns 70.
I vote for Jersey Al to be the next President.
Bitternotsour
December 21, 2023 at 09:08 am
I've been stuck on John Schneider coming home to run the whole enchilada. I wonder if he could talk his wife into moving back to Wisconsin winters.
T7Steve
December 21, 2023 at 07:31 am
"If he were a strong head coach, he’d fire Barry now and try to give the team something fresh for the remainder of the season, rather than taking the easy, scared route of letting Barry’s contract run out at the end of the season."
Tim, if he was a strong head coach, Barry would have been gone one or two seasons ago, or not hired at all.
Like HarryHodag says above, no personnel changes matter until they figure out the O-line. Please help this young QB and team!
jannesbjornson
December 21, 2023 at 08:52 am
Milt Hendrickson hit on Jenkins and Zach Tom, leaving three voids. Rhyan looks to be a power gap guy .Maybe he earns his spot? They have to bag a LT in round one-two and another guy by rd. three. Maybe Tom is a better center, but I doubt it. He doesn't have the bulk to stop the bull rush. He is great in edge contain. Speculation about Rasheed Walker as the future at LT from certain sports writers leaves a guy entering the black hole.
It really feels like Infante-Land.
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 09:10 am
Tom would be a better C than a T in my opinion. His use of leverage and footwork and quickness would make him very valuable leading the blocking assignments inside and going right or left.
He's the same size as Myers...he has plenty of bulk to play C...and has demonstrated he can do so well. MLF, Stenovich and Butkus just believe they need him more at RT, even as the IOL at C and RG remain broken OL links.
jannesbjornson
December 21, 2023 at 09:24 am
The whole crew keeps fawning over Myers, Gutey's guy. Myers can pull and move out in front of the wide-zone and screen game, but without A.Jones they have nobody to run the scheme.
Coldworld
December 21, 2023 at 09:46 am
Myers has a year left on his contract. At this point he’s never recorded a plus season. His time as the future needs to be over in the sense that we need to add options going forward. Personally I think that’s why Gute picked up Tom and said he profiled best to C.
I do not think Myers is here and anointed because of Gute, but because Hanson flamed out and got injured and that was their prior anointed untouchable and for some reason they replaced him with Myers, with similar disregard for performance. Myers is better than Hanson, but he’s not ever been preferred starter material.
I still believe we should move Tom or Jenkins. I still want to see Caleb Jones, but Nijman will be gone (likely very happily—it will be interesting to see how he performs elsewhere). I still think Walker is a better RT prospect long term and Tom at left, but even if I’m wrong, we need to add at T. We need to add on the interior too.
Refusing to test others (Tom/Jenkins) at C had clouded exactly where we should invest both picks and future training. I can’t help wondering if this happens if the HC reports to the GM, I personally doubt it.
Rhyan just needs to play. He needs a full game or two through all phases of the game, not situational insertions. At this point these things are more important for this team than anything. Stop refusing to test talent. If it doesn’t work you can undo it but you learn and the player gains experience and that a win in itself for next year. A trait under LaFleur that shows no sign of abating.
jannesbjornson
December 21, 2023 at 10:12 am
Then Tom would be the starting center. Good 'ol Gutey selected Myers over Humphrey. His guy.
Not a lot of confidence in the GM.
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 10:54 am
Myers was a consensus top C in the draft. I preferred Humphrey too but wasn't shocked Gutey drafted him.
Last time I checked, Gutey still does not coach the OL.
Coldworld
December 21, 2023 at 10:57 am
If this GM had control over coaching, your logic might resonate, but he doesn’t, that’s the true GM, Murphy. Gute can only provide players that the coaches will use. How they do that he can’t countermand.
I agree Myers had been out played by Humphrey, and thus is a bad pick BY Gute. However, all GMs have them. That’s one reason why teams keep a pipeline. Tom was overtly picked with C in mind. Thus Gute was giving us options. The coaches decided not to take it. I write that having wanted a C and G vocally in the last draft.
To me the immediate problem lies with the coaches, the secondary problem the severance of the link between the roster builder and what they do, and with that, control and thus accountability.
I know you blame Gute, primarily, but to me the primary driver of the symptoms we seem to agree on is coaching exacerbated by structure. If I knew LaFleur and his team were constrained to realize Gute’s vision, then maybe, but I really can’t get to that from what I see.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 23, 2023 at 10:44 am
CW,
moving Jenkins to C isn't something I root for, just because with Bakh next to him they were so dominant.
At OT we have Walker Mt Caleb Tenuta and Telfort. (Expecting both Bakh and Nijman to be gone next season) None of these guys have even been tested except Walker. If they haven't done so by now I don't think they will this season, in which case how is Gutey supposed to draft well? I'd be awfully surprised to see a rookie come in and contribute more than these big men.
If Jenkins were flanked by Tom at C and the best of these at LT, and played like that all throughout TC, GB might have a good O line. I'd love to see the top 3 picks all go to IOL.
beerandbrats
December 21, 2023 at 07:07 pm
They fawn over Myers because they can't admit their failure to select Creed Humphrey, all-pro center...
SicSemperTyrannis
December 23, 2023 at 10:36 am
LP,
I also believe Tom would be an improvement at C for another reason: football IQ. He plays really well anywhere you put him. Why? Football IQ. That's most advantageous at C.
Out of all the times Myers has been beaten just this season, how many were due to physicality vs mental error? Moving in the wrong direction is an obvious mental error, but when Myers is beaten because his mechanics are poor that is also a mental error that looks like he just got overpowered.
I don't expect this coaching staff to even seriously pursue this as a possibility next TC. This one change might have made all the difference to the W-L record this year. If they hadn't benched Nijman over childish favoritism that might have helped; it wasn't due to merit on the field, that's for sure. Once you put him on ice he doesn't do well. Neither does he adapt to playing different positions as they had hoped.
Mistakes like this have me questioning everything the coaches do in this aspect, and O line coaching mistakes like this just can't be overcome by players. Add to that the lack of teaching proper fundamentals and how that impacts player development and we have a very odd combination of promising young skill positions and an inconsistent, leaky O line.
Butkus should be the first one out the door.
NickPerry
December 21, 2023 at 07:31 am
Good read Tim, I enjoy this piece each week almost as much as Al's "Polluted Mindset". You hit on a lot of points but there's one I want to focus on and it was the end of the article.
"If the Packers find a way to lose this one, not only should Joe Barry be forced to walk home (where he will promptly learn he’s been fired), but Matt LaFleur should feel the heat as well for standing by him."
Matt LaFleur SHOULD feel the heat? What I can't understand is why in the hell Matt LaFleur feeling the heat NOW? I mean common, LaFleurs seat should be hot as hell right now. At the end of last season LaFleur didn't even entertain the idea of letting Barry go. IIRC it was almost immediately after the season ended he was informing us all Joe Barry would be BACK in 2023. There was no thinking about it even with a LOT of quality DC's out there to be hired.
So I have a question. What about the OC job. Is he keeping Steno? What about Buckus? Personally I think BOTH should go but LaFleur will never do that. MLF is a nice guy. I think he's a decent offensive mind. But a leader of men? A strong presence in the locker room for his players? Does he have the ability to do the RIGHT thing no matter how hard it is?
The answers to those questions and many others I could rattle off are No, No, and HELL NO!
wollner27
December 21, 2023 at 08:08 am
What Joe Barry did to Darnell Savage should be criminal. An athlete like Savage would have benefited greatly from being used as centerfielder that was allowed to roam the secondary a little and use his instincts. Instead, he was consistently taught to not be beat over the top and be the deepest man on the field (shudders thinking about 3rd and 4 last week).
Savage is going to get a shot with another team, hopefully its with someone that will let him play his style of football, because Joe Barry has cost him and a few others a lot of money.
Matt LaFleur needs to also be looked at for his culpability in keeping Barry for 3, f-ing 3, seasons, and each year the defense has gotten worse. How can something so obvious to everyone (fans, pundits, haters of the Packers) be invisible to him? I guess we have to remember that this was the guy that kicked a field goal down 8 in the NFC Championship....
jannesbjornson
December 21, 2023 at 09:00 am
Pettine had him playing downhill and in single-high, he seemed to range well as a centerfielder. Barry's Static zone scheme is like statuary. When you run zone you understand you have to run to the ball and anticipate the routes.
You never retreat upon the snap of the ball.
Guam
December 21, 2023 at 08:20 am
I agree with Tim's assessment of the draft needs although I would reverse the safety and O-line priorities. I think an LT comes first as I have no confidence Bakh is ever coming back. I also agree that more investment at ILB is necessary as Campbell is showing his age and simply not able to cover receivers of any kind any more. The Packers have seven choices in the first four rounds and need every one of them.
jannesbjornson
December 21, 2023 at 09:11 am
Yes, the LT, but ILBs should cover RBs and TEs. The WRs are the domain of the CBs and FS. Inviting the mis-match is like slowly putting the razer to the wrist.
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 09:52 am
You saw Sunday's game, right? The WRs were wisely routed to run shallow routes THROUGH the ILBs zones. It was a mismatch the stubborn, incompetent Barry used the entire game. Mayfield played catch with his wide open WRs, defended by slower Packer ILBs.
That was the mis-match. Zone, prevent (the win) D.
jannesbjornson
December 21, 2023 at 10:23 am
I have the Film. Walker is supposed to be the chase guy, but in the NFL, you have to react in a milli-second. He is planted too many times, just reading, same for Nixon who should have been the roam guy as the nickel.
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 11:03 am
Good grief...Walker is chasing...from 7-9 yards deep at the snap where his DC wants him to be! He is subjected to the laws of physics.
How can you call Walker a bust when so many of his personal football skills are unused or mis-used. I believe the young man would approve of this...and Alexander would second it.
HawkPacker
December 21, 2023 at 11:37 am
Guam, I was with you regarding LT being most important but now I am not so sure. I read an article the other day about Walker. The author stated that early on when Walker played the LT position, he did not play it well. But the last three games or so, he has been rated as one of the highest LT's in the league. I admit that I am not sure on this but I do remember not hearing his name called lately for bad play.
Could Walker be our future at LT? We have a bunch of other OT's either on the roster, practice squad or injured. Could any of these fill that role for the future such as Mount Caleb. We have so many of these tackles and I wonder what the evaluators think about them.
Can you imagine if one of these tackles was our future? It would be so much easier not to have to draft a tackle early in the draft as we have so many other needs such as IOL and Safety.
Speaking of safety, apparently Savage played great under our previous DC but not for Barry. If we change the scheme next year to one similar to our previous DC's, would Savage take off and play well? We need him evaluated with that in mind.
I think we need to wonder if these players were in another scheme would they take off as great players? If so, I believe this is so important as this could change what positions really need help through the draft, FA etc.
Just a lot of thoughts about our priorities.
Coldworld
December 21, 2023 at 11:53 am
Even if Tom stays at RT, Nijman is gone and Jones completely untested, as is Tenuta. We can’t go into a season with that. We can’t give an excuse to the coaches to not look at other options at C. It doesn’t matter if the draft pick starts or not, if it’s on merit.
We need to draft a T early, we need then to have a genuine process of deciding who plays best where to produce the best outcome. We also need at least a G, possibly 2 and a C. Runyon shouldn’t be getting a new contract except as depth, Jenkins also could move to C. For unknown reasons Rhyan remains untested, and there’s no one behind at G or C.
Unfortunately, I have next to no confidence in the coaches responsible to oversee this optimally whatever Gute does. OL is as bad a sore as D in my opinion and close to as critical.
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 08:41 am
Barry -
I completely agree that he needs to be gone. This is just my guess and I'm taking an educated guess based one watching LaFleur's press conferences and what some players have said. But my best guess is that LaFleur is ready to let Barry go. He was after the game, He said he needed to watch the tape. What the tape revealed was that the players didn't do their assignments. They talked about lack of communication. My guess is that he was prepared to let Barry go if the players ran what was called and they got beat like they did. Since they didn't, he probably felt as if Barry wasn't the biggest issue. I'm not saying he is right if that is the thinking, but that is what I took from the press conferences and why Barry is still the DC.
My hope though is that after the season he is not brought back. They go and find a good DC. We will have to see who is fired and who is available.
Love -
This year was to determine if Love was the guy. its safe to say he is. He will continue to make young mistakes, but he has learned from them. I wrote this about Love yesterday when I was talking about LaFleur.
"He has thrown for 3368 yards, 25 TD's, 11 Int's. Lets look at Love's first year as a starter.
Lets break it down into 2 halves. They have played 14 games so first 7 and last 7.
Loves first 7 games.
135 completions on 234 attempts, 1492 yards, 11 TD's, 8 Int's, average rating 81.2.
Loves last 7 games.
169 completions on 252 attempts, 1876 yards, 14 TD's, 3 Int's, average rating 104.0
Currently Love ranks 10th in yards, tied for 5th in TD's. He has thrown less Interceptions then Allen, Mahomes, Hurts and only 1 more then Goff, Lawrence and Tua."
These are very good numbers. Sure Love has some mechanic issues to work on. But what young player doesn't have that to work on. The part I like is that they are building something. They young WR's, young TE's are all growing and building together. They are learning along with Love. They are building something good for the future.
Looking ahead at potential draft or free agency needs -
DC - this is the biggest thing we need. We need a new scheme that will allow the players to use their talents. We need a more aggressive DC that will allow the players to use their abilities. For example. Walker is a great downhill guy. He has tremendous speed. Move him around and allow him to blitz to pressure offenses. We need a DC that understands that you can't simply win with the front 4 down in and down out. You have to mix it up especially when things aren't working.
Safety-
Savage was really good before Barry came. I do wonder if a new system would work better for Savage. Putting him in position to use his strengths. I like Johnson as well. I want to see him start the last 3 games.
Offensive line-
Depending on what happens with Bakhtiari, we need to improve our LT and RG for sure. Rhyan might be the guy at RG, but I don't believe Runyan is and I don't think he will be back. Myers I believe has improved, and will continue being our C. But i wouldn't mind seeing more competition brought in. We have 2 locks right now. Jenkins and Tom. We need to build around that.
Cornerback-
Regardless of what happens with Stokes and Alexander, CB is always a need. We need to improve this position yearly. They drafted Vallentine in the 7th round and he looks like he could be a steal. Just keep drafting this position.
Running back-
They need to draft 1-2 RB's. We really need more speed. The difference from Jones to Dillon is noticeable. Jones takes a play and makes it a 5 yard run where Dillon maybe gets 1. Dillon is a good backup. But he isn't a number 1. I think Wilson could be a guy to watch. I hope he can come back these next few games. Regardless though I want to see them draft a couple of RB's.
WR-
Yes I know they have drafted 6 WR's the last couple of years. But right now out of the 6 4 of them are being used. Toure has been a healthy scratch the majority of the year. DuBose is on the PS. Heath looks good as an UDFA. But this is where we need to be thinking long term. This is where Thompson made the mistake with a young Rodgers. He stopped drafted WR's, and they eventually ran out. Its something I don't want to see Gutey do. We have 4 very good WR's imo. Heath is 5. But right now 3 of them are hurt. We need to keep the WR position stocked! I would like to see another deep threat type added. Someone that can stress defenses. I'm not saying we have to use a high pick on a WR. But if the right one is available. I'm all for him going after one.
Guam
December 21, 2023 at 09:08 am
RCPF; I wish you were right that MLF was that logical about Barry, but I don't believe so. I think friendship got in the way of the logical decision.
I am certain there was miscommunication happening on the field, but after three years in the Barry defense, who is ultimately responsible for that problem? Even if the players have some fault, the defense is clearly failing and something has to change. You can't fire all the players, so the only answer is a change at DC. Yet that didn't happen. Why? MLF allowed his friendship with Barry to interfere with the logical decision.
I say all this from personnel experience. It is hard to fire friends and yet sometimes you have to to fulfill your job responsibilities. And to those who say you should never hire friends, even if you hire complete strangers, after three years of working closely with someone, you likely have become friends. Which puts you in the position of having to fire friends if they are underperforming their job responsibilities. Not fun and exceedingly uncomfortable when it comes to the face-to-face meeting. However it is necessary if you are to fulfill your job responsibilities. And MLF is failing that function fight now.
Which is why I believe not only Barry has to go, but MLF as well. Neither is fulfilling their job responsibilities at this point.
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 09:23 am
I don't think MLF's "feet of clay" are due to friendships he has with incompetent coaches. I agree with what Tim wrote in the article that MLF was again "taking the easy, scared route of letting Barry’s contract run out at the end of the season."
Same as Mennenga, Drayton. And even with Coach Gray, who had previous success as a DC and hated Barry Ball along with his DB room. Gray was not on the same page with Barry...and then MLF wanted to retain him. Gray would have non of the continuing dysfunction, even if MLF did.
MLF is timid and cowardly with difficult decisions.
Guam
December 21, 2023 at 09:55 am
We can disagree on the "why" LP, the outcome is the same - MLF won't make the obvious decision to (hopefully) better the team. And that is a huge problem for the Packers.
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 10:19 am
How is firing Barry with 3 weeks left going to better the team?
I want Barry gone as much as anyone. But they have 3 games left. With what is going on with the defense, I don't think it's going to change that much with or without Barry.
The scheme is bad. And the guy running the scheme is worse. But is a new DC going to change the fact that guys constantly miss tackles? Is it going to change that guys are getting themselves out of positions?
If one of the guys promoted from the current staff were promoted, how much of a change would we truly see? I don't think that much.
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 11:18 am
How would firing Barry make the team worse? I am serious.
MLF said they had a team meeting Monday to vent to each other about the lack of communication and understanding of the Defense...after game 14!
How would it make the team better? It would display accountability. It would show a can do/will do mentality. I think the players would play with a renewed attitude and energy translated into on the field behavior. The remaining 8 D coaches wouldn't be struck blind and dumb with Barry gone. They'd still coach their guys.
Put Bisaccia in charge and let the D coaches coach to player strengths and let the players play.
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 12:14 pm
The communication errors they talked about were on field. Simply not talking. Just like me and my softball buddies playing. Our team is and has been one of the best in my area. Not because of our talent level, but because we are constantly talking. On defense, we don't make errors because we communicate. We know where to go with the ball before it is hit. And we talk. When a guy swings and you can see him turning the opposite way, we are all over that shit. Football is no different. You can have the coaches/cheerleaders on the sidelines telling you to do something, but it's the communication on the field that has to be sound. Don't get me wrong, that starts with coaching, but the players have to be held accountable for that as well. There was a play where they had 2 WR's left, and 3 to the right. They had 4 defenders on the 2, and 2 on the 3. Walker needed to slide over, and he didn't. Thats one example of communication.
I want Barry gone. I truly do. But I don't think its instantly making us better for these next 3 games. That is my point with it. if there were 6+ games left absolutely. But there are 3 games left.
Leatherhead
December 21, 2023 at 12:42 pm
All my life, I've known people who think the best way to improve things is to get rid of people. I've also known people who think that you don't get rid of people until you have somebody better. I can tell you which type of person has been more successful.
In a 32 team league, if you're ranking between #13 and #20, you're average. We're 18th. But it's clear here that nobody thinks we have a legitimate DC, and that basically any toad off the street could do better, even with 3/4 of the starting secondary gone.
Y'all are going to be happy when Barry is replaced, but in a short time you'll want the new guy gone too.
Guam
December 21, 2023 at 01:15 pm
I am more concerned with the players than performance at this point. I think it started with Gray's departure last year coupled with comments by Campbell and Alexander this year, it appears Barry may be losing his locker room. Couple that with bad performances and it is more about causing no further damage than getting better this year.
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 10:06 am
You believe what you want to believe.
Let me ask you this. What if in the meeting with players on Monday, if they asked to not have Barry fired?
Coldworld
December 21, 2023 at 10:46 am
Any basis for that or just wildly clutching at straws? At some point the length of the reach for an explanation undermines your case s’more effectively than anything.
Let me ask you, since you have stated that you expect Barry gone within the month and agree that needs to happen. What is the benefit of not removing him now? What’s a positive justification for delaying?
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 12:20 pm
I'm not in the meeting. I have no clue what was said. They haven't talked about what has been said. I'm simply asking the question, because all of us out in the world are spewing crap nonstop, when none of us know anything that is going on inside that room. We are all grabbing at straws and speculating.
I would have fired Barry. I was on record saying I wanted him gone at the bye week. I wanted them to go hard after Leonhard because he could have come in during the bye week, acclimated himself to the team and blended his system with the current one. It would have taken a few weeks, but by now the defense I believe would have been much, much better.
There is no benefit of keeping him. I guess keeping status quo right now? But that status is horrible so I don't see the point in keeping him.
The only thing I can think of why they didn't let him go is if players went to bat for him to stay on for the rest of the year. If your players come up to you and say they don't want this guy fired in season, I think it would be hard to fire him. And maybe that would band the players together a bit too?
Again, all speculation. I have no clue.
Guam
December 21, 2023 at 01:09 pm
Could have happened RCPF, but given the recent internet comments by Campbell, the defection of assistant coach Gray to Atlanta last year and related comments and then the odd case of Alexander this year there seems to be some active disaffection for Barry. I suspect (but don't know) that Barry might be close to losing the players on defense. And that along with the recent performances are why Barry needs to go now.
vin0770
December 21, 2023 at 11:05 am
I just retired from 40 straight years of coaching HS basketball so let’s call the obvious about ANOTHER MLF presser talking about his students not getting it right. Miscommunication…again…same penalties again…an on and on. His students repeat previous mistakes and now the carry over has affected their effort. Mistakes of commission are always accepted but it’s really hard to rally a team when the Head Teacher has lost cred.
The answer about the problem of miscommunication again, is the teaching staff sucks at teaching because that’s what coaching is! So how many tests does a teacher have to give and watch the students fail before they change their teaching methods to get the improvement? So MLF has a repeat classroom that are all failing because they’re all dumb? MLF and staff need to be gone if they can’t teach a lesson that repeatedly is MISCOMMUNICATED!
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 12:23 pm
How many offensive players are having miscommunication issues?
The communication errors are all on the defensive side. Sure, the offense has an issue here and there. But that is due to the inexperience and the youth. That crap will happen. But the defense there is constant issues.
That is why LaFleur will be back and why Barry will not be.
LeotisHarris
December 21, 2023 at 08:45 am
Tim, you consistently churn out thoughtful, interesting posts here. Much appreciated. I hope the Barry-related spleen venting was as cathartic for you to write as it was for me to read. Spot on! Boom! Eff, yeah, and 10 thumbs up for use of "vomit-inducing."
It's been ages since I enjoyed hot lunch in a school. Survey results suggest hot lunch quality hasn't improved much over the years. Is Spanish Rice still on the menu?
Leatherhead
December 21, 2023 at 12:44 pm
Hot lunch schools have not improved. I do consults from time to time that have me in a school around lunch. Ugh. It smells bad and it looks bad.
Fubared
December 21, 2023 at 09:48 am
Sorry packer fans but top notch defensive coordinators arent coming to green bay. You will end up with some guy everyone will say "who?".
First the best of the best will look at this team and say to themselves, I cant do a dam thing with this group of no talent losers who lack speed, size and coverage abilities. Plus the team is cheap and wont spend the money upgrading. NO THANK YOU
Second, the Org, will not go out and spend big money on anyone relevant example: Capers, Pettine, Barry.
Just okay is good enough for the bottom line. Lets keep it cheap.
Leatherhead
December 21, 2023 at 12:47 pm
We're 18th in the league, so another 14 teams should be looking for better DCs as well. And in the event that we ever got a real ball of fire who could hold teams under 20 even with most of the secondary injured, he'd be offered a promotion to head coach and he'd be gone and we'd be right back where we are.
Capers was a very respected coach in this league for a long time. He's not really a very good example to make your point.
We were OK at defense last year, better than KC, and they won the Super Bowl. You can win with OK, if you can score points.
Glen popes
December 21, 2023 at 09:54 am
Die hard packer fan from jersey all comments are so true. Was at the giants game an Barry should of been fired after that last drive. So much talent on that defense going to waste. An Lafleur backs him! Why. Cut ties with both
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 10:02 am
“We had a great meeting on Monday,” said LaFleur. “A very open forum where anybody could speak. There were some things that were said." I bet there were.
It seems, after all the OTAs, camp, practice, the defense is not "communicating" with each other...coaches to coaches, coaches to players, players to players. The entire D's communication has broken down. Yikes.
But this was fingernails on the chalkboard for me:
MLF: "So obviously that’s a big time point of emphasis that we understand not only what we are doing but why we are doing it.” They just played their 14th game!
If I was a D player my response would be "hey coach, we understand what we are doing but it is not working. But you want us to keep doing it?"
HawkPacker
December 21, 2023 at 11:52 am
Great points LP.
I wonder if what was said in this meeting is why De'vondra Campbell went off about?
TKWorldWide
December 21, 2023 at 10:08 am
Maybe I’ve been huffing too much grass or sniffing too much glue, but it seems like the teams who consistently excel on defense have a HC who came up on that side of the ball.
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 10:13 am
And the teams with better offenses typically have a coach that comes up from the offensive side of the ball.
Look at GB's Offensive rank vs Defensive rank. I believe GB is currently 11th in DVOA on offense where I think the defense is 28? Something like that.
TKWorldWide
December 21, 2023 at 10:26 am
Agreed.
I think a lot of teams favor offense when hiring because they all want to get and develop the next great franchise QB.
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 12:26 pm
definitely.
In this league it is an offensive league. How many true shut down defenses are there in the league today?
There are tough defenses for sure. But how many can shut down the opposing team week in and week out?
Not many.
TarynsEyes
December 21, 2023 at 10:20 am
As much as we all know that Barry is bad, I found it funny that you felt the need to tell us how very good MLF is as an Offensive coach, multiple times. You seem to forget how many times his play calling has been deemed horrible here. With the recent use of jet sweeps that seemed to be called every fourth play.
CheesedDeadHead
December 21, 2023 at 10:52 am
What? You don't think Lafleur was a great OC when he had a HOF QB and WR?
TKWorldWide
December 21, 2023 at 10:28 am
Consistently complaining about playcalling is the lowest hanging fruit on the NFL fan’s tree.
LeotisHarris
December 21, 2023 at 10:34 am
Oh, yeah? Well, how many wrap-around draw plays have we seen called by LaFleur this season? Huh?
TKWorldWide
December 21, 2023 at 11:10 am
This time of year I’d go with a gift-wrapped around draw play, yo.
CheesedDeadHead
December 21, 2023 at 12:32 pm
I thought it was family jewels as the lowest hanging fruit...
TKWorldWide
December 21, 2023 at 01:34 pm
Depends on the age of those involved.
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 10:43 am
Listening to Wilde and Tausche and damn did Tausche just bring up a good point. I will butcher the shit out of this, so i recommend anyone going and listening to what he said if you can, because it was like a light bulb went off.
He was talking about Barry's style of defense. Basically, his style of defense was supposed to be one that plays with a lead so that it's built to stop the passing game. Which with Aaron Rodgers as the QB it is a good style to play. That style of play blends with the offense and becomes very complimentary. Similar to when Peyton Manning played, they drafted all the smaller pass rushers because they knew they would score a ton of points and would need to have fast guys to get to the QB.
But he brought up wondering if LaFleur knew he would not have Rodgers, if that would have changed his decision in going with the style of defense that he went with.
The 2 best games this year for the defense has been the 2nd games against the Lions and the Chiefs game. What happened in both of those games? The offense got the early lead and it allowed the defense to do exactly what it was designed to do.
It was a really good listen to what Tausche was saying and what he said makes sense.
Qoojo
December 21, 2023 at 11:40 am
What they are basically saying is if the opposing team never runs the ball. The defense had a lead and let the giants drive 50 some yards in about 50 seconds. So I guess the defense was designed for having a lead > 8 points with an offense that can score if the lead ever gets <= 8 point.
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 12:02 pm
Basically, that the defense was designed to play with a big lead and to win shoot out types of games.
it was an interesting listen.
Qoojo
December 21, 2023 at 12:16 pm
Isn't "shootout" a synonym for poor to no defense?
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 12:24 pm
essentially. But you get what I was saying. At least I think you do. If you don't, I didn't explain things well enough therefore I should be fired.
Qoojo
December 21, 2023 at 12:53 pm
lol
Leatherhead
December 21, 2023 at 03:15 pm
That "drive" was one pass play.
Qoojo
December 22, 2023 at 11:03 am
1. 5 yd pass
2. 7 yd pass
3. 9 yd pass
-- ball is at NYG 46 at this point and 55 sec to go
4. 32 yd pass
5. 4 yd run
6. -3 yd run
7. 3 yd run
8. 37 yd fg
LambeauPlain
December 21, 2023 at 11:41 am
I knew this 3 years ago when MLF's inspired attempt to lure Leonard to Green Bay (almost did it!) saw him do an 180 in both D philosophy and candidate. Going from attacking, innovative successful defenses designed to use player strengths to a passive, play with the lead perennial DC loser, buddy Barry. It was a jaw dropper to see MLF's 180 flip.
Barry was indeed brought in to play with a lead...otherwise known as zone, prevent the chunk play, defense. Sacrificed for this philosophy is a focus to stop the run, and 3 & outs. It depends on timely sacks and turnovers to get stops. Soft vs physical D.
This philosophy was inept after the 2022 season as they could not play with a lead until the last few games when turnovers, the great equalizer, came in bunches. Then the turnovers again stopped and so did the season in Lambeau vs the lions.
But this year the "play with a lead D" is now "give up the lead D". They D has given up 5 leads late in games for 5 of the 8 losses. Until last Sunday's complete collapse.
RCPackerFan
December 21, 2023 at 12:05 pm
"But this year the "play with a lead D" is now "give up the lead D". They D has given up 5 leads late in games for 5 of the 8 losses. Until last Sunday's complete collapse."
And that is exactly why they will let Barry go. He simply isn't good enough to adjust and plays way too much prevent to win style of defense when the games are close.
Sunday's collapse I would suggest is about 50/50 to 40/60 in who to put the blame on, between Barry and players. Outside of the 5 sacks the DL did nothing. The LB's were awful. The tackling was awful. But Barry did not put out a good defense in this game. it was bad.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 23, 2023 at 11:09 am
RCP,
this too comes down to adjusting. MLF knew he no longer had AR12, and he did not adjust. As OC? Maybe. As HC? He's all wrong for this team, and probably the NFL.
Qoojo
December 21, 2023 at 10:47 am
I think the Onion article might have been the final nail. When or if the team is officially eliminated from playoffs, the firing might happen. I am not convinced that MLF sees JB as the problem, but there is a lot of focus on the defensive failures. It's a bit difficult to ignore at this point.
CheesedDeadHead
December 21, 2023 at 10:57 am
And that's why MLF has Barry around so all the lightning hits JB instead of going after the HC and his poor history of mistakes, mismanagement and consistently being out-couched.
BAMABADGER
December 21, 2023 at 11:25 am
Great analogy that Barry is a black hole that sucks the energy out of his players. His passive unaggressive scheme also puts players in more frequent position to be injured.
I would also not over embellish and praise MLF's offensive play calling. He is a good yet inconsistent play caller at a level significantly below a Kyle Shanahan
CanPackFan
December 21, 2023 at 11:40 am
I just today read something Campbell said since his earlier viral tweet. It was very team oriented and did not blame coaches. He said it was everyone. That was classy.
Too bad his HC isn't as team oriented or as classy! MLF has certainly lost all credibility due to his mis-placed loyalty to a friend over his team. He has a lot of ground to make up to repair the destruction he has brought onto his reputation.
ricky
December 21, 2023 at 01:15 pm
A new DC? Great idea. Last year, Vic Fangio was a free agent, and ended up in Miami, where he has built a solid defense. But there is a very large caveat here. For several years, there were a lot of people demanding the team hire a good ST's coach, and pay him a decent salary, rather than "promoting from within" and having terrible ST's play. So the team hired Rich Bisaccia, and made him the highest paid ST coach in the league. And the ST's are still terrible. In short, getting a good coordinator isn't always the answer. Though in this case, finding someone who could coach up a young team, and utilize their strengths, would be a major step in the right direction.
Also, you wrote this about the Vikings:
The MINNESOTA VIKINGS are barely hanging on to their chances at the playoffs while a whole host of teams right with and behind them are snarling at the opportunity to jump in front of them. This isn’t a team that’s beating anyone in January, so they may as well just get out of the way and embrace the inevitable.
Couldn't the same thing be written about the Packers? Especially with their spectacularly misused defense?
BobWellhoefer
December 21, 2023 at 02:00 pm
Not firing Barry now is sending a strong message to everyone on this Packer team that mediocrity and incompetence is tolerated and even rewarded. Good luck to the head coach getting that attitude out of the organization next year. De'Vondre Campbell is only the tip the iceberg when it comes to that mindset.
MooPack
December 21, 2023 at 02:08 pm
Careful what you say about mediocrity. There are a few here that welcome it like a warm Christmas sweater.
Since'75
December 21, 2023 at 05:55 pm
Well....i was going to comment, after finally finishing reading this article complete with a restaurant beer review, and the crowning of Love.
But i'll save it for another article and explain how some of this works in a real world way, and with real world responsibilities and accountability.
This will not be an endorsement of Barry, at all.
But...there are others responsible.