Questions that need answering as the pads come on
Aaron has a few questions he's hoping start to get answered as the true grind of training camp begins in Green Bay.
By PackerAaron
It's been great having Packers football back in our lives the last couple days, seeing pictures and video from Ray Nitschke Field, knowing the long slog of the offseason is finally behind us.
While the initial thrill of camp opening is always fun, the real work starts Monday morning when the pads come on. With that in mind, I had a few questions that I feel will need answering throughout camp and thought I'd share them with the group prior to heading out to practice tomorrow morning. This is not, by any means, an exhaustive list. Just a few random questions I'll be paying attention to throughout camp and preseason.
How will the safety position shake out?
The first few days of camp have mostly followed the same form that the offseason work did, with Darnell Savage and Rudy Ford running with the first unit most of the time. (Jonathan Owens has gotten a few reps there) While you can expect things to kick up a notch once these guys are flying around in pads, the real answers here won’t come until the preseason games start kicking off. Owens, Anthony Johnson Jr, Tarvarius Moore, hell, even Innis Gaines or Benny Sapp could make enough noise throughout camp to get extended looks during preseason. They don’t need superstars here, they need sound tacklers who are assignment sure. That could legit come from anywhere on the depth chart.
Who wins the right tackle battle?
While Yosh Nijman and Zach Tom have been rotated at right tackle basically all offseason, the hope is someone truly starts to separate once things get physical. This is a decision I expect the Packers to hold off on until after the Patriots preseason game, so there’s a decent amount of tape to look at, including two joint practices against a very talented Patriots front. Also, with pads coming on and the physicality turning up, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Tom get more than the cursory looks at center he’s been getting up until now if Josh Myers doesn’t show improvement and the consistency his game was sorely lacking last year.
How will Jordan Love continue to develop and find consistency?
By all accounts, Jordan Love is coming off one of, if not the, best training camp practice he’s had in a Packers uniform. No question, as a Packers fan, that’s exciting to hear. The key is for Love to build on Saturday’s performance and make that kind of output the standard. That’s remarkably easy for me to type, but will be incredibly tough for Love to do while working with a historically young receiving corps and a pair of rookie tight ends. Everything gets more difficult once the pads come on and guys are fighting like hell to get off press coverage or make the correct adjustments at the line of scrimmage. I think Love is going to surprise a lot of national observers this year, but it won’t be smooth sailing by any means. His ability to make a practice like Saturday the standard rather than a noteworthy exception would be an incredible step forward for the first year starter.
Can Lukas Van Ness contribute immediately?
Rookie first round pick Lukas Van Ness got run with the ones on Saturday and apparently held his own, showing off some of the raw athleticism that the Packers undoubtedly expect to help him wreak havoc on offensive lines throughout his career. The question is, with Rashan Gary on PUP and a starting spot at Edge there for the taking, can Van Ness harness that God-given ability and be something more than a a guy with athletic upside. It’s one thing to push a move tight end into the backfield in shorts and T-shirts. It’s a whole other ballgame to put the pads on and take on a pulling guard or an All-Pro offensive tackle firing off the ball at you in the run game. We all love the idea of the Packers using Van Ness not only at Edge but along the interior on some passing downs. But right now, that’s all it is. An idea. It’s up to Van Ness to show the Packers that not only does he belong, he’s ready to help this defense right out of the gate.
Will Anders Carlson spiral or bounce back?
The circumstances and surroundings are only going to get harder for the Packers rookie kicker, who missed five of six field goals in two separate periods on Saturday. With minimal distraction or any real rush or pressure. Yes, it was a windy day, but there will be windy days in Lambeau. Hell, the team opens their season in The Windy City. Kickers performances can seem to be mercurial and some guys crumble into a funk at the slightest hint of adversity while others seem able to use it as a springboard to improvement. Here’s hoping Carlson is the latter.
Comments (53)
NickPerry
July 31, 2023 at 05:41 am
All excellent questions Aaron... Awesome to see a written piece from you. Maybe I've missed them but most of your contributions are on video so it's nice to see this piece by you too...The Man...Well you and Al...
Andres Carlson is the one that has me wondering just WTF Gute, MLF, and Bisaccia are thinking? I mean why all this faith in THIS kid? Just because Bisaccia knew his brother and knew Andres from those days isn't enough to enough IMO... There needs to be MORE competition.
I get moving on from Mason Crosby. He costs a lot more than a 6th round rookie. The leg strength isn't there anymore on KOs, but he could still kick a 53 yard FG when a game is on the line, and was money ALMOST all the time after 2012. But there has to be some other options out there, if nothing else to PUSH this kid a little more.
If he has another day like that, LaFleur and Bisaccia MUST bring in some other kickers. Hell, they should be doing it anyways. But Jordan Love is already working with a receiving group of WRs and TEs who are HISTORICALLY young. He also doesn't have a Veteran backup QB to help him in ways maybe a Clifford or one of these other QBs they have on the roster can't.
I just don't get some of these moves by Gute and I've been one of his biggest supporters. IF the Packers lose games because Carlson misses kicks and was the only kicker throughout camp and is named the starter pretty much by default, or if Love was to miss a few games because of an injury and we've got another Scott Tolzien situation on our hands, Gute is the ONLY one I'll blame.
Guam
July 31, 2023 at 07:40 am
NP: I am not quite as concerned about backup QB as LaFleur seems to like Etling and Etling has been around long enough to know MLF's system. I also don't think you would want to bring in a high level backup QB (Bridgewater for example) as it might threaten Love's confidence as a starter. I think you want coaches and teammates all fully invested in Love this season to maximize his chance for success.
The lack of kicking competition for Carlson is a head scratcher. I expected to see one or two veterans as well as the rookie competing in this summer's camp. Not sure why Gute wouldn't do that.
jannesbjornson
July 31, 2023 at 04:46 pm
If some in the front office were not in the football business, they would be working as used car dealers.
LPPAKer
July 31, 2023 at 07:49 pm
We talken bout practice? Practice? He was 5-6 the day before. I like just about everything you have to say, but this time ain’t one of them. Mason is a HOFer to me some day. He’s a rookie, and I trust the decision makers on this time. Don’t think he’ll be the cause we lose the SB this year, same for all the rookies, this year.
ko40489
July 31, 2023 at 06:00 am
Amari Rodgers was just released by the Texans. Maybe Gute will bring him back. And Jace Sternberger too.
PackerAaron
July 31, 2023 at 07:36 am
Jace just signed with the Bills.
Guam
July 31, 2023 at 07:43 am
Sternberger had a really good season with his USFL team. Maybe he finally grew up and realized how hard he had to work to make it in the NFL. I wish him luck.
TKWorldWide
July 31, 2023 at 11:39 am
Was it bad work habits that led to his release from GB?
Guam
July 31, 2023 at 06:01 pm
I have only heard rumors, but it sounded like Sternberger was spending too much time doing "recreational activities" and not enough time learning his craft. Had a bit of TJ Lang in him and didn't wake up soon enough. Again - just rumors.
However his coach with the USFL praised his work ethic and commitment. For his sake I hope he keeps on his current path.
dobber
July 31, 2023 at 01:49 pm
Hope he can play STs.
GregC
July 31, 2023 at 06:15 am
I thought Zach Tom would be moved around more during the off-season, but so far he's been the starting right tackle, with no indication that he will be challenging for the center or right guard job, as expected. Are we going to see that now? Maybe not.
Same thing with the safeties. It's been Savage and Ford as the starters all the way so far.
The wide receiver rotation has tentatively shaken out already too: Watson and Doubs as the starters, Reed in the slot, and Toure filling in behind all of them. Maybe Dontayvion Wicks can get on the field and work his way into the rotation, but that would be a surprise at this point.
So overall I would say there's been less intrigue than expected, which is mostly okay I guess. Safety is the one position where I would definitely like to see a more open competition. And I do expect the competition for #3 RB to heat up when the pads come on. How the tight ends are used is pretty open as well. The big question is how well Luke Musgrave can block.
It will all be very interesting, but right now it seems that the starting lineups are pretty well set, and training camp will mostly be about tweaking the rotations, especially at TE, DB, DL, and OLB.
13TimeChamps
July 31, 2023 at 10:29 am
"The wide receiver rotation has tentatively shaken out already too: Watson and Doubs as the starters, Reed in the slot, and Toure filling in behind all of them."
Add in the 2 rookie TE's...man, that is one YOUNG, inexperienced receiving group for a 1st time starting QB, who is young himself. At least he has Jones and Dillon as veteran safety valves he should be able to count on.
Not gonna lie...the kicking situation has me perplexed. Drafting a guy who had a less than impressive college career (76%), basically never kicking in cold weather, and a very shaky camp so far....and ZERO competition? I hope this doesn't come back to bite them in the ass.
GregC
July 31, 2023 at 11:35 am
I don't get it either. I thought they had a young kicker who they liked on the roster last year, but they let him go.
jannesbjornson
July 31, 2023 at 04:49 pm
I'll take Talent over experience. I like this group. Crosby is on speed dial? Maybe he likes retirement. Should have moved on the Syracuse kicker in the draft, Andre Szmyt.
greengold
August 01, 2023 at 05:04 am
Hey Greg! - Found this a couple days ago:
“We’re going to be moving guys all over the place,” LaFleur said.
“And just because somebody’s running with the ones doesn’t mean that’s necessarily the case and vice versa when you’re running with the twos. I don’t want these guys to even think about the depth chart at this point.”
The real battles begin today with the first full pads practice. Personally, I don’t think the current “lineups” most reporting surmises will reflect the 53 we’ll see in 40ish days.
You’re right. Safety is a huge battle. My money is on Tarvarius Moore and Anthony Johnson Jr. as our starting Safeties for 2023.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 01, 2023 at 06:21 am
GG,
if it's assignment sure and tackling ability we want, I'd go with #34 Owens as the irresistible force based on what I saw yesterday. At S a lot have excelled without elite speed, they have more time to react and get to the play. Especially if a speedy CB can get there and slow it down first, even if they can't bring the ball carrier down. Usually we're talking about a difference of a step. Also, while Owens couldn't break up JL's pass to Christian Watson he WAS able to legitimately get a hand on him as soon as the ball was caught; he got there so fast I literally could not see how he did it, in the split second I spent watching #9 complete the catch. It was a thing of beauty all around: JL led him perfectly, a very sure catch, and great coverage.
Tater
August 01, 2023 at 11:07 am
I have this feeling Savage is their guy going into the season regardless. They will only bench him during the season after too many missed tackles/blown assignments.
HarryHodag
July 31, 2023 at 06:39 am
Can the defensive line step up to be dominant?
Can Joe Barry get this defense into the top dozen teams?
greengold
August 01, 2023 at 05:08 am
YES.
croatpackfan
July 31, 2023 at 08:11 am
Aaron, I thought TC is for improving young and not so young players, as well as preseason games. If some players will not show improvement up to the season, they will not make the team.
RT position - Tom already said that he would like to play RT and that RT position suits him the best. Considering David Bakhtiari situation with his long recovery I see Nyman to be first back up for both tackles spots. For me there is not much of intrigue.
Jordan Love - as far as today we can only say that Jordan improving with every practice Packers have. And that is what you want to see. Worrisome would be that he open TC with excellent performance and than regresses. I expect Love will continue to improving. Do not forget that last week was the first time Love was leading offense against 1st D with bunch of rookies. OTAs and minicamp was nothing in comparison to TC intensity.
LVN - If Enagbare shows that he further develop I do not see to much need to play Lucas Van Ness so much on D. They can test him in some situations and he will se the field during the season for sure, but I do not expect him to become starter immediately. He will be in rotation, some game more, some games less snaps. If Gary come back in October, he will be 4th OLB, or they will use him occasionaly as interior lineman, depending on match up.
Anders Carlson - again, Carlson met Wisconsin wind blowing in his face for the first time in his life. I imagine he tried to kick as hard and with more strength to beat that wind. When you kicking as strong as you can, first should suffer precision. Also, there was, by report 2 bad snaps, one of those 2 was in the legs of O'Donnel. Give him some time. And I have no problem with competition for any job during the TC, so maybe there will be another kicker in week or two.
All together it looks like D keep the level of playing and O improving from practice to practice. That is good sign by MHO.
PackerAaron
July 31, 2023 at 10:01 am
Tom saying he likes one position over another doesn't mean anything.
croatpackfan
July 31, 2023 at 10:57 am
Thank you for answer, Aaron. Well he said that he feel more natural on the right side. That must mean something, doesn't it?
PackerAaron
July 31, 2023 at 10:40 pm
Yes, it means tackles are paid more ;)
croatpackfan
August 01, 2023 at 02:04 am
LOL
SicSemperTyrannis
August 01, 2023 at 06:24 am
Lol
It'd be odd if C is our weakest position on the line. It also might work; JL10's pretty mobile.
TKWorldWide
July 31, 2023 at 11:41 am
I kinda like the RT to be more of a mauler. Maybe I’m just not on board with the times.
T7Steve
July 31, 2023 at 12:26 pm
You've got it in my opinion. I'm old fashioned too (heavy on the old part).
Still, I would love to see a goal line or short yardage play with Nijman and C. Jones together on that end.
Wishful thinking?
SicSemperTyrannis
August 01, 2023 at 06:27 am
We also have 6'8" Tenuta and 6'7" Telfort.
jannesbjornson
July 31, 2023 at 04:58 pm
Speed to the edge and mobility in space is today's game. No cut-blocks, or high/lows. I imagine he worked on his body over the winter.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 31, 2023 at 10:37 pm
No but he did express satisfaction with settling in at RT. That might tell us something through the grapevine. Orr it might not.
LeotisHarris
July 31, 2023 at 08:39 am
Zero competition at the K position is baffling. It's not like the new kid just had a bad day, he came in with those stats. Why hand the job to a guy with a big leg who seemingly hasn't mastered the kick it between the uprights part of the job?
greengold
July 31, 2023 at 09:05 am
Because Rich Bisaccia.
mnbadger
July 31, 2023 at 09:34 am
you have to wonder who's making final decisions about kicker position? If we knew, we could ask that person WFF?
If karlson's handed the job, I would think he'd have limited credibility within the locker room if he were to fail during a RS game.
GPG!
greengold
July 31, 2023 at 08:44 am
Aaron, I totally, totally, totally agree at Safety!
You hit the nail on the head… “they need sound tacklers who are assignment sure. That could legit come from anywhere on the depth chart.”
Tarvarius Moore. Jonathan Owens. Anthony Johnson Jr. Innis Gaines. They are literally the ONLY ONES who fit the description above.
RT battle? I think it is as likely that we see EVERYONE return to their starting roles from the Packers 2022 OL, as we maybe see everyone but Jenkins in a new position. Bakhtiari’s cap figure figures in here? It's a Yes or No question, and the correct answer is "Yes." Runyan’s too, as he has zero dead cap if traded. Myers may get beat out at C??? It’s possible. There are some HUGE badass players looking for a shot, not only on the 53, but to start in this NFL. None of us knows how well or poorly Sean Rhyan did at C. Maybe he balls out and wins the starting C position outright. Rhyan was a uniquely gifted player at UCLA. His stature, build and fight is absolutely perfect to play the Center position in the NFL.
Do I think Chuck Filiaga can beat out Jon Runyan for a starting RG positon? Hell yes.
Do I think a MONSTER OT like the 6-8 313 Kadeem Telfort could somehow win a starting spot? Or the 6-9 370 Caleb Jones? What about the 6-6 324 Rasheed Walker? It’s possible any one of those 3 players lights it up and wins a starter position at OT.
I love David Bakhtiari starting for the Packers forever as much as the next guy, but, reality... it is screaming to us all that right now may be the best opportunity to get out from under that HUGE $40M cap hit next season, while getting something of value in return. Will his play in 2023 be "of value?" If healthy, it's a given, on grass... that is a dilemma, and something to ponder.
Can Zach Tom beat out Josh Myers? Probably. Gutekunst himself said pointedly Center was Tom's best position. None of us knows what Gutekunst & LaFleur's plans are for the Packers OL this season, but we all heard that the OL positions were up for competition in 2023. Battles Royale!
Love WINS.
LVN can probably start tomorrow. "See ball. Get ball."
Anders Carlson will be fine with Rich Bisaccia guiding the way. Maybe Whelan is not only the better Punter on this Packers team, but also the better holder.
Leatherhead
July 31, 2023 at 09:27 am
"""they need sound tacklers who are assignment sure."""
The 2022 Packers had the fewest missed tackles in the league.
mnbadger
July 31, 2023 at 09:41 am
Didn't know that, but if true that's good.
But that doesn't change the point that safeties are the last line of defense and must be sound tacklers and assignment sure.
If a DT whiffs, a LB should be there to clean up.
If a Safety whiffs, we line up for the extra point.
GPG!
greengold
July 31, 2023 at 10:13 am
LH, whatever source you are using is questionable. StatMuse?
PFF had Green Bay ranked #20 in missed tackles and missed tackles/snap with 120 /0.108. Washington had fewer missed tackles with 116, but a higher per snap miss rate at 0.109. Our Missed tackles on STs ranked #12 with 17.
As a team, the Packers had about 20 or more missed tackles than the NFL leading teams. CLE, SF, CHI, PHI, HOU, DEN, MIN, NYJ, BUF, TEN, SD, MIA CAR, NE, CIN, BAL, SEA, IND, PIT all fared better.
***Missed Tackles is not a great stat in determining team success. 8 of the teams in the middle of the rankings were part of the total of 12 playoff teams in 2022.
--
At Safety, Savage missed 9.4% of his tackles - a CAREER LOW!!! Rudy Ford missed 8.3%.
The best in the business last year, Derwin James, 4.2% MTkl%. Minkah Fitzpatrick, 5.0%. Jayron Kearse, 2.5%. Antoine Winfield Jr., 2.4%. Tyrann Mathieu, 6.2%. Jordan Poyer, 4.5%. Jevon Holland, 5.0%. Talanoa Hufanga, 7.6%. Kyle Hamilton, 7.5%. Jimmie Ward, 7.4%. Harrison Smith, 2.3%. Adrian Amos, 3.8%.
I'll stop there... whoosh!
Leatherhead
July 31, 2023 at 07:04 pm
I'm looking for my source on that...I agree that Statmuse is kind of shaky. But profootballreference.com is a little more solid, and they had us 4th on missed tackles, and 2nd in YAC, so somebody is getting tackled by somebody. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest this is kind of a subjective stat in some respects.
I also agree it's not a great Stat, I agree that Savage was not as good as the best in the business last year, but he was one of our leading tacklers last year and played 100% of the snaps when he was able to play on a defense that didn't give up much YAC.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 31, 2023 at 10:48 pm
LH,
I appreciate the stats. Situational football still matters. There were some situations where our D just couldn't stop the opponent. Ja gave up some big plays. Jalen Hurts wasn't the only one to run all over us.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but disrupting the backfield has been known to help ...
greengold
August 01, 2023 at 05:20 am
B I N G O
We might be best served with both Tarvarius Moore & Anthony Johnson Jr. starting. The battles are still left to be played out, beginning in earnest today with full pads.
You’re not getting better until you get better. We kept a underwhelming Lowry on our DL for how many years? Savage & Ford should be fighting for their jobs. Turnover at the position may be required if the Packers are to improve.
This coming from a huge Darnell Savage fan. I just took a real look at our problems, run stop, and how he needs to improve there or be replaced.
Savage’s PFF grades from 2020, his best season as a Packer: 75.3 overall. 65.8 run stop. 79.9 pass rush. 76.7 coverage.
If Darnell Savage can return to these numbers in 2023, that would be ideal. There’s other factors in play too. Darnell played through injury for much of the last two seasons. We lacked consistent pass rush through much of that time. Then there’s the questionable coaching by Jerry Gray.
A healthy Savage, with better coaching from Greg Williams & Ryan Downard, coupled with an improved pass rush might make all the difference in the world. I’m still pulling for Darnell Savage to realize his best play yet in Green Bay.
jannesbjornson
July 31, 2023 at 05:01 pm
Call the Budda.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 01, 2023 at 06:33 am
Here's another piece to the puzzle: replacing big dog Mercedes Lewis doesn't need to come from a TE. We're looking for a 6th O lineman. We've got lots! Luke Ness Monster could be the answer, wouldn't that freak out Gutey? Lol. Although as you point out, there's talent to spare in our named O linemen.
ImaPayne
July 31, 2023 at 08:45 am
Carlson is another Gutt blunder but this kid like a lot of Gutts questional picks come cheap. Cheap is the word. Had he picked a kicker in the third round he would be paying the bucks for him.
The packers must be able to get lesser players to come to the table because Rodgers took most of the meat with him when he left.
Hey this team wins 8 games pack fans should be thrilled.
greengold
July 31, 2023 at 09:04 am
Blow it out your Viking Ass Horn!!!
mnbadger
July 31, 2023 at 09:46 am
that's not a horn, that's the sound that comes out naturally.
Somehow sounds triumphant but also ignoring the eventual but certain failure that will eventually sink the boat.
GPG!
jannesbjornson
July 31, 2023 at 05:03 pm
Song of the Shipwrecked sailors. Even the cows hate it.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 31, 2023 at 10:49 pm
It ain't cheap if the kicker costs games.
T7Steve
July 31, 2023 at 11:07 am
Aaron, we need you to do a bunch more written articles. Personally, I can't do the audio ones, and just read the comments. This was a nice surprise.
Not necessarily the biggest questions, but the most important (besides coaching) are the O and D lines. Having them underperforming makes the other positions worse, if not untenable. Having those lines in the top 5 of the NFL makes All Pros / Pro Bowlers out of the rest of the "skill players".
Let's not have another season of being pushed around and teased about toughness.
Leatherhead
July 31, 2023 at 12:01 pm
We often finish the season starting some OL who was about #9 on the list when the season began.
T7Steve
July 31, 2023 at 12:21 pm
Yes. I can live with starting at #9. As long as they show improvement though the whole season. If they can stay healthy, keep practicing together and grow their depth, I see that happening.
dobber
July 31, 2023 at 01:56 pm
Can the Packers get consistent enough blocking out of their TEs to support the run game they want to play AND have them make a difference in the passing game?
Marcedes Lewis played about 40-45% of the offensive snaps every year he was with the Packers--even when Tonyan got hurt--because he filled that valuable role. He wasn't a key route-runner...he was there to do mostly that one job. Keep in mind, he only missed something like one game in his four years. That's a big hole to fill.
greengold
July 31, 2023 at 02:42 pm
dobs it’s kinda funny. Lewis had a grand total of 7 targets last season. A total of 75 targets over his last 5 seasons. The most targets he’s ever had in his 5 years with the Packers was 28.
A “Tackle Eligible” might be even better, quite frankly.
DragonSilk
August 01, 2023 at 08:35 am
I'm a little concerned about Van Ness's 17 reps on the bench press. Anyone nicknamed "Hercules" should be strong enough, but I hope strong enough in the B1G is strong enough in the NFL.
Also, I can't wait find out what "Strap City" means and see in action!