The Lass Word: What Would a Rebuild Look Like?

Tear it all down, or just tweak?

I hear many of my Packer brethren saying it’s time.  Time for the “R” word.  As in Rebuild.  Aaron Rodgers disagrees.  He says he wants no part of it. Which strikes me as ironic and kind of funny, because any rebuild likely means he would be the first to go.  So, I guess it’s good that he wants no part of it, because he has no part in it.  This does, however, raise an interesting question: What exactly would you classify as a “rebuild”?  How far would you go? 

It’s just a code word 

I suspect that many Packer fans, when they use the word “rebuild”, are really using it as a code word for “changing quarterbacks”.   Would any changes in Green Bay’s roster this offseason, that do not include a change at quarterback, still be considered a rebuild?  I think not.   

It could also be code for “let’s dump all high salaries”.  The Packers have five players whose cap number in 2023 will exceed $20 million, including Rodgers ($31.6), left tackle David Bakhtiari ($28.8), defensive lineman Kenny Clark ($23.9), cornerback Jaire Alexander ($20.2), and running back Aaron Jones ($20.0).  All would be considered highly compensated by any definition.   

Then there are players such as edge rusher Preston Smith, whose cap number is $13 million in 2023, and edge rusher Rashan Gary, who counts $10.8 million against the limit, even though he will likely not be ready to play until mid-season, if then, and it’s anybody’s guess as to whether he will regain his dominant form.  Inside linebacker De’Vondre Campbell has an $8.1 million cap hit this year, and safety Darnell Savage will take up $7.9 million of space. 

Exactly how many of these nine players would have to go if the Pack shifted into a true rebuild mode?  As a group, they comprise what most would consider the core of the team.  Yet it is a core that was able to propel the team to only eight wins this past season, and thus may not be worth keeping intact.  It is their salaries which prevent the team from significantly improving itself.   

On the other hand, moving some or all of those guys would also result in significant dead money issues.  That’s the real price of a rebuild.  And there are no guarantees.  Let’s say, just for the sake of argument, that Green Bay could find a way to divest itself of several of these players, and create comfortable cap room.  What are the odds they use it to acquire players who are better than what they have now?  Free agent signings are a risky business.  There are at least as many flops as there are successes.  For every home run like Charles Woodson or Ryan Pickett, there is a failure like Brandon Chillar or Jeff Saturday.  You might get a Julius Peppers, but you might also get a Letroy Guion.   

These current highly paid Packers are highly paid for a reason.  They are, or at least were, very, very good at what they do.  If the definition of a rebuild involves losing many of them, it’s a roll of the dice. A risk that General Manager Brian Gutekunst, in hopes of keeping his job, is likely not willing to take. 

Pack is already rebuilding 

In reality, Green Bay, and really every NFL team, is constantly in a state of gradual rebuilding.  When the green and gold lines up to begin the 2023 season, the starting receivers are likely to be two second year players in Christian Watson and Romeo Doubs.  The offensive line will feature a second-year tackle (Zach Tom), a third-year guard (Jon Runyan) and a third-year center (Josh Myers).  With Rashan Gary recovering from his knee injury, one of the starting edge rushers will probably be promising second year prospect Kingsley Enagbare.   

One of the inside linebacker starters will be second year man Quay Walker.  Devonte Wyatt, in his second season, figures to play prominently, if not start, on the defensive line.  Then there is the upcoming draft.  With a selection as high as number fifteen, the first round should bring another young starter to the roster, perhaps at safety or tight end.   

Of the 22 starters on the 2019 team, the first coached by Matt LaFleur, only seven starters remain.  Eight if you count tight end Marcedes Lewis, who doesn’t always start.  My math skills are pretty shaky, but I believe that’s 68 percent changeover.  In four seasons. 

So, when Packer fans clamor for a rebuild, it would be interesting to know exactly how they define one.  Do we really want a roster packed with new faces in new places?  Or are we actually just talking about a change at quarterback? 

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Ken Lass is a former Green Bay television sports anchor and 43 year media veteran, a lifelong Packers fan, and a shareholder.

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Comments (149)

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Barnacle's picture

January 23, 2023 at 06:39 am

Whatever we do, I hope we replace Gute. He has mismanaged our salary cap, created the second highest payroll in the NFL, compromised our future and totally capitulated to a disgruntled, selfish, whiny flower child and missed the playoffs.

Then we have to look at “Gutey” with his arrogant smirky grin as he sips his ever present water bottle. If the packers release “Gutey” I doubt he will ever get another NFL GM job.

With a HOF gb “Gutey” built a non playoff team.

Rebuilding player staff and maintaining current management is not the answer!

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NickPerry's picture

January 23, 2023 at 06:44 am

Have you EVER heard of Mark "We not Idiots" Murphy? Remember the "Silos"? I mean just WTF dude?

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Houndog's picture

January 23, 2023 at 06:52 am

You beat me to the punch, Nick.
I was about to remind Barnacle that Gute answers to Murphy.
Place the blame where it lies!

And then, what the hell happened to Ball? When Thompson was there he could squeeze the piss out of a Buffalo Nickel. Now he throws money around like it grows on trees.

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Irish_Cheesehead's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:27 am

Once again it starts at the top. I agree. Time to cut the head off the snake. Murphy has to go.

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HarryHodag's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:47 am

My goodness some fans are spoiled. They want to keep all their heroes then blame management when they don't win every game 50-0.

The reality is the problem is the result of Aaron Rodgers and his drive to have the franchise at his beck and call.

You analysis forgets the many years of winning we've had under the current arrangement. But don't let the facts get in the way from your football version of Fantasy Island.

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Barnacle's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:41 am

It seems to me that the “fact” that somebody locked us in to an old deteriorating overpaid qb and refused to accept a queen’s ransom has questionable judgement.

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BradHTX's picture

January 23, 2023 at 04:54 pm

And the evidence you have that that decision originated with Gute amounts to exactly what Toto got in the Wizard of Oz: diddly.

Indeed, no one will know whose decision it was to extend Rodgers last off season, at least not until Rodgers, Gute, LaFleur and Murphy have all ridden into the sunset in all likelihood. But the evidence (based on the drafting of Love, Dillon and Deguara 1-2-3 back in 2020) implies that Gute and LaFleur were ready move on from Rodgers, and then something changed — besides his MVP seasons. There’s only one office the order to extend Rodgers could have come from, and the sign on it does not read “B. Gutekunst.”

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TOMMY'63's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:40 am

What many years of winning, mate? In 30 years with back to back hof qbs , we only have 2 sbs to show for. What a disgrace pos Thompson couldn't give arod a defence in his prime.yes our offences were great in arods prime. It was the defences that negated the trips to the sb

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Tekraut17's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:31 pm

Exactly how many teams EVER have a dominant offense and defense at the same time? Rarely happens, most times it's a best that we can afford scenario and hope no one gets hurt. As I remember we had some bad luck as far as injuries to defensive players also during that time...Nick Collins comes to mind.

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TOMMY'63's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:33 am

I agree totally with your pov. He learnt his job under that pos Thompson, remember? Many here thought highly of Thompson. I don't, just look at his drafts. For 5-6 drafts he used his 1st picks on dbs,outcome they were all busts! No its not only gute mustn't forget President Murphy. Unfortunately no one will clean out this disastrous front office

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calabasa's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:26 pm

POS? Have a little respect for a GM who brought us a Super Bowl, asshole.

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BradHTX's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:01 pm

“that pos Thompson”

Stay classy, dude. For whatever you may think of Thompson’s draft abilities, calling him a “POS” is very much a “takes one to know one” move.

Thompson’s drafting acumen at the end of his tenure was very questionable. Yeah, Randall and Rollins sucked and King was mediocre. He also drafted Nick Collins and Morgan Burnett (who wasn’t a HOFer but didn’t suck) and found Tramon Williams and Sam Shields. And he brought in Charles Woodson. So really? Thompson’s DB evaluation skills are the hill you’re going to die on? Good riddance.

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egbertsouse's picture

January 23, 2023 at 06:40 am

Rebuild? This is how I would like it to look.

Don’t sign any of their own UFAs unless they get bargain deals. They need to stop overvaluing their own players and throwing money at one-year wonders.

Bahktiari, Alexander, Jones, Clarke should be traded for picks. They are all paid like Top Five players but perform much lower at this point.

Do whatever you need to do to get Rodgers out of town and get rid of his old Kentucky Derby drinking buddies.

Yeah, they will be in cap hell a couple years and will have a couple horrible seasons until they can undo Murphy and Russ “Ponzi“ Ball’s mismanagement but they will emerge a younger and better team.

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jurp's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:10 am

I'd nuke LaFuckup and his lousy staff while I'm at it, too, but no rebuild can be successful as long as Murphy meddles in the football side of the business. We also need the organization to be restructured to what it was under Harlan.

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:07 am

We have seen a litany of basic, fundamental errors and incapabilities in the coaching arena that on any other team we’d be laughing at their incompetence. It’s amazing what Rodgers, Adams and co. made look decent to those who just see overall record. The consistent and glaring failures and inability/unwillingness to address them ought to have demanded action already. The LaFleur era is perhaps the biggest waste of Rodgers’ talent of all. Yet we give him a pass as an organization. Instead we have fallen into a the trap of trying to redo what we let go to waste, even more expensively and illogically.

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Tekraut17's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:39 pm

MLF would be on the market for maybe 30 seconds before some other team hires him. Yes he could do better in some areas but his success is off the charts. Everyone wants heads to roll after one down season but finding quality coaches is no easy feat and having AR has been a blessing and curse. Just navigating that rollercoaster BS has to have had some impact on the team over the past 2-3 years.

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PackyCheese500's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:44 pm

He has been riding on the coattails of AR and Adams. When he is asked to do more, like in playoff games or in 2022, when we trade Adams, he comes up short. Both he and Murphy should be replaced.

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jannes bjornson's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:25 pm

Trade him for a one pick, like NOLA requires for Payton's compensation. See if you have Any takers.

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:25 pm

Caveat emptor. I would be ecstatic to give another team the chance to reap that harvest.

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CheesedDeadHead's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:58 pm

Well MLF brings a lot of manure to the table, or field, so that should be one heck of a harvest, or poisoning of the crops from too much nitrogen.

I'm thinking Brawndo from the Documentary "Idiocracy."

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PackyCheese500's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:43 pm

Jones and Bakh yes. Alexander was a pro bowler, and Kenny will come around - I think moving him to 3-4 DE would be a better fit.. Keep them

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BradHTX's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:06 pm

Neither Jones nor Bakh is likely on the “5 Year Plan,” but both had excellent seasons (second half anyway in Bakh’s case) and are worth having around for at least a couple more years.

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NickPerry's picture

January 23, 2023 at 06:43 am

Rebuild or tweak? Obviously it all starts with Aaron Rodgers. As much as I hate to say probably Aaron Jones, and possibly David Bakhtiari. Not that I want to see Jordon Love running for his life, but DBs salary got out of control with Murphy and Ball shoving it all back with no concern for the future, a future they probably wouldn't be here for much of anyways. A RB for $20 million is just ridiculous no matter how beloved he is. Football IS a business, a cold one especially on the day you lose #33.

I have no doubt the Packers brass is looking at every possible avenue. My hope is Gute is the voice of reason in this process. Explaining to THAT IDIOT Mark Murphy that he IS an idiot and to PLEASE let Gute do his job the way Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson were able to do theirs. Anything less will be more damage to the future of this great franchise.

The longer Murphy is allowed to call the shots, the closer this franchise comes to what will FEEL like the 70s and 80s. You 30 somethings and younger have NO IDEA what that was like. Trust me, it can get a WHOLE lot worse than 8-9!

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Thegreatreynoldo's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:12 am

" it all starts with Aaron Rodgers."

That's been a problem for me. However, I think I have finally figured out an approach to use for a cap article on roster construction for the 2023 season. There are a lot of moving parts this year. If AR returns, what does that mean for 2023 and beyond? Who is AR going to want GB to retain? Will the FO grant his requests or use it as a means to persuade him to accept a trade, or even retire? What about guys like Nixon, Tonyan, Reed, Ford, Lewis, and Amos? IF GB wants them, will they want to test their market value by waiting for the legal tampering period? I don't think GB can wait that long. Would GB grant permission to those guys to talk to other teams? What if AR wants a trade or wants to retire? Arghh.

I probably will have to break it down into more than one article. It is going okay so far. Most people seem to have gotten the gist of the implications in AR's contract, so that helps.

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MainePackFan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:57 am

TGR. I have been looking forward to one of your cap articles. Glad to hear it's in the works.
Regarding Rodgers contract (if they don't trade him), it appears there is an "out" after the 2023 season that would leave the Packers with a 24.4M dead cap hit.

Right now, it looks like that cap hit is spread out over the last 3 years of his extension (8.1M per year) If they move on, I assume that 24.4M can't be spread out over the 3 years if the Packers and Aaron decide to take that out. I'm curious to know.

If he retires after next year, is there a way AR can contractually alleviate some of the pressure of that dead cap hit?

All questions I'm sure your article will address.

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:40 am

Not directly on point, but I think illuminating: Adam Schefter reported Saturday that a trade of Rodgers would be very reasonable for the acquiring team. He stated cap numbers of $15.79 million in 2023 and $32.54 million in 2024 for Rodgers’ new team, based upon Overthecap.com data.

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splitpea1's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:03 am

That's good news- half the battle is finding a willing suitor.

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Tekraut17's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:45 pm

J E T S! JETS! JETS! JETS! Send him there, get Wilson in exchange as your backup (hopefully never needed), dump the huge salary, pick up some needed FA/Draft help for DL, OL, Safety, WR or TE.

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NickPerry's picture

January 24, 2023 at 06:04 am

Thank you TGR...I can't wait until those articles are posted.

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T7Steve's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:14 am

I like to think it wasn't Gute's fault because he's made some good moves. However, if he was a good GM and not just a "yes man", he should have walked out of that situation as soon as Murphy started letting Rodgers build the team and hold them hostage. Doesn't he have a spine? What other good GM would come here with this culture? If they did would you trust them?

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jurp's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:19 am

A reminder of what was... and could yet be:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Green_Bay_Packers_season

QB performance: 6 ( ! ) TDs vs 21 Ints.

Speaking of QBs, our backup QB was a guy named Brian Dowling. He was Garry Trudeau's friend at Yale and the inspiration for the character B.D. in Doonesbury. And yes, he played liked he was two-dimensional.

Shut-out by the Bears IN LAMBEAU.

134 total points scored in a 14 game season. Yes, fewer than 10 per game on average.

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PeteK's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:50 am

Watching Brockington was fun.

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Bitternotsour's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:35 pm

Brockington's knees were like Joe Frazier throwing body punches. He burned bright, and then burned out. Macarthur Lane and Brockington were massively fun though, while it lasted.

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RCPackerFan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:15 am

There are different levels of rebuilding. Every year every team rebuilds somewhat. The draft brings in new players to every team ever year. It just depends on how much turnover there is. Rebuild to me starts with how many starters are replaced as well as coaches. GB can say what they want but this year was a rebuild year. They lost 3 coaches? They then had done some shuffling around with the coaches. Then they essentially rebuilt their WR core. They essentially had to rebuild the OL in the middle of the season. They added a ton of rookies and kept them on the 53 all year. Whether it was for financial reasons or for reasons that they were the best players available, they definitely were in rebuild mode to get younger.

There was a clear commitment to youth in GB this year. Some would consider that a rebuild. Packers had 11 draft picks this year and they kept everyone of them on the 53 all year. In the final game of the season they had 14 rookies on the active roster.
Of the 11 draft picks 6 of them were regular players. Walker, Wyatt, Watson, Doubs, Tom, Enagbare. Carpenter was a starter on special teams, and late in the year Toure earned more playing time on offense. They also had Coco who won the LS job as an UDFA. Another UDFA that they brought onto the 53 was Caleb Jones. And they also brought in a couple of other drafted players from other teams. Luke Tenuta was a 6th round pick and Bo Melton who was a 7th round pick.

The Packers invested a lot of time into this years rookie class. They currently have 21 rookies on the roster. I wouldn't be surprised to see another bigger rookie draft class this year.

To consider this offseason a rebuild, I think it would be based on how many of the top players they get rid of. That would start with Rodgers and Bakhtiari.

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jurp's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:24 am

Really good info about the rookies on the team - I didn't know that.

I'd argue that-trading, not re-signing or cutting (whichever applies) ALL of the Big Four (Cobb, Crosby, Lewis, and Bahk) will eliminate the elephant in the room and begin the process of ushering in a new younger era with a younger QB. This all depends on whether Murphy can get out of the effing way and let his GM do his job; part of which would be to shitcan our ineffective HC.

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Razer's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:50 am

Having the organizational dysfunctionality doesn't help matters. Murphy put his foot in the door and prevented solid longterm planning.

I do worry that Gutekunst isn't good enough to build a team going forward. If we are a draft and development team then he isn't doing a good enough job in the draft. Too many misses at TE, secondary, O-line, D-line and maybe even QB. They have been able to find guys in FA but now we have no money.

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:12 am

Teams almost always need some FA help to really contend. It’s just a fact of life given the historical draft success rate and lottery of health. That’s one reason why what we are doing is irrational. Holding on to a declining core that’s not got it done while continually ensuring we don’t have that option.

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RCPackerFan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:24 am

What misses has he had at OL?
Since he became GM he has drafted Cole Madison (5th round), Elgton Jenkins (2nd round), Jon Runyan (6th round), Jake Hanson (6th round), Simon Stepaniak (6th round), Josh Myers (2nd round), Royce Newman (4th round), Cole Van Lanen (6th round), Sean Rhyan (3rd Round), Zach Tom (4th round), Rasheed Walker (7th round).

He has spent 2 high draft picks on OL. Jenkins - stud. Myers has been at least average. Lets not forget Myers missed half of his rookie year.
He has spent 3 mid round picks on the OL. Newman was a starter his rookie year. This year he started out playing out of position and wasn't allowed to grow. Rhyan didn't come in and start right away like some thought he would, and got suspended to finish the year. And Tom was another stud pick.
He has spent 6 draft picks on late round OL. Runyan is a great pick as he has been a starter. Van Lanen was traded for a draft pick. Walker showed promise late in the preseason.

I feel he has done a really good job drafting OL. He has drafted 11 and of those 11, 8 of them are still on the roster.

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Razer's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:38 am

We have an average O-line that gets overwhelmed by any good four man front. They look, play and run block like a bunch of mid to late round draft picks - which they are. Good enough against the poorer teams but disappear in the playoffs. I guess it is more a case of you get what you pay for.

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:59 am

It seems to me that a real part of that may well be coaching. Plenty of inexplicable personnel choices and tactics surrounding the OL and how it was used in the context of the surrounding offensive strategy since this time last year at least.

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RCPackerFan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:45 am

Especially the decision to start Hanson at RG and Newman at RT to start the year. That made no sense at all. Especially after Tom, had looked good at OT in the preseason. It made no sense.

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Packers1985's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:01 am

Even with the our starting olineman we didn't do well in the red zone and got stuffed near the goal line multiple times this year.

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jont's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:35 pm

"It seems to me that a real part of that may well be coaching. Plenty of inexplicable personnel choices and tactics surrounding the OL and how it was used in the context of the surrounding offensive strategy"

This is the odd part. Stenovich was great last year, moved to coordinator, and the O-line had trouble executing. I get it, he wasn't with them every day, but still he was there, he saw it.....

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PeteK's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:16 am

Last year the line was good, even without Jenkins and Bak, but his year there was too much shuffling. IMO the line will be good next year because of further development & stability.

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RCPackerFan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:21 am

Exactly my thinking. It takes time to build cohesiveness along the OL. You can replace a player here or there. But you can't expect to make massive changes on the OL and for them to be at their best.

Here are the OL Lineups throughout the year.

Week 1 - Yosh, Runyan, Myers, Hanson, Newman
Week 2 - Yosh, Runyan, Myers, Newman, Jenkins
Week 3-6 - Bakhtiari, Runyan, Myers, Newman, Jenkins
Week 7- Tom, Jenkins, Myers, Runyan, Yosh
Week 8 - Bakhtiari, Tom, Myers, Runyan, Yosh
Week 9-12 - Bakhtiari, Jenkins, Myers, Runyan, Yosh
Week 13-16 - Tom, Jenkins, Myers, Runyan, Yosh
Week 17-18 - Bakhtiari, Jenkins, Myers, Runyan, Yosh

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TOMMY'63's picture

January 23, 2023 at 12:06 pm

We had Billie at rt last year,remember? His quality of play wasn't replaced

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Packers1985's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:24 pm

Even last year we shuffled alot i guess because of injuries. The experience of Billy Turner and lucas patrick is what stabilized the Oline. Where as this yr we lack the experience in the replacement as back ups etc.

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RCPackerFan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:43 am

Half of this year they had Jenkins at RT trying to come off of a torn ACL. Bakhtiari missed half the year. Half way into the year they moved the OL all around. They moved Runyan to RG where he had never played before. They moved Yosh to RT where he had never played before. They did this in the middle of the season on the fly.
It takes time to develop an OL and OL cohesion.

My point with Gutey though. where did he miss on an OL? He has resigned Bakhtiari, he has resigned Jenkins. He brought in Turner who played well in GB. He drafted Jenkins and Myers in the 2nd round. Myers maybe he isn't the HOF player we want him to be at this point in his career, but he hasn't been a bust either. Rhyan a rookie 3rd round pick didn't contribute. Is he a bust? No idea. Jenkins is a HOF type of player.

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Packers1985's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:04 am

I wouldn't say Gutey whiffed in terms of drafting good Olinemen. Apart from drafting Jenkins rest all olinemen he drafted seems to be strictly okish. Tom definitely has a huge upside though i see similar path like Jenkins.

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jannes bjornson's picture

January 23, 2023 at 12:59 pm

Ergo draft an OT in round two, 2022. Everybody with eyes could see they needed a plug and play guy for RT.
He went for Walker at LB and lost a two pick.

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davekenya's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:31 pm

...and the team benefited for years having Campy and Steno as offensive line coaches up to 2022. They seemed to make every OL worth at least two rounds better than what he was drafted at. Many of the OL attributed their growth & development to these two coaches. Not easy to replace!

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croatpackfan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:07 am

If you expect that GM get future HOFers in all rounds every draft, you live in illusion.

For example, nobody here mention Deguara as very good pick at TE/FB. Do you know that he has not have any drops when targeted? In his whole NFL carrier. But many thinks about him as bust.

Also, many posters here expect from rookies to be immediate contributors, but not just contributors, they expect them to shake the world by their performances. And no one will admit that it is very, very rare when that happens.

Look at Trevor Lawrence? He had dreadful first season. 2nd season, with good coaching he started to show his talent. Expect more in coming years.

So, if GM in draft contribute with 3 possible starters in their 2nd year, he had tremedous draft (like Watson, Doubs, Walker). And add that to 2 to 3 contrubutors that is obvious they have not yet reach ceiling (Wyatt, Enagbare, Tom) you got possible 6 starters/important contributors.

And do not forget that all draft choices are not the product of one man (GM), but the product of whole scouting team at Personnel department.

Thank you!

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TOMMY'63's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:54 am

Like I've stated he learnt from Thompson, what do you expect? In all professions to be really good you have to learn from the better teachers!

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TOMMY'63's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:54 am

Like I've stated he learnt from Thompson, what do you expect? In all professions to be really good you have to learn from the better teachers!

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RCPackerFan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:56 am

I could see them bringing Cobb, Crosby and Lewis back or letting them go. If I had a guess, my guess is all 3 are gone. At least I think the odds are greater that all 3 are gone then all 3 are back.

I think Bakhtiari will back no matter what. He is too valuable at LT to let go. He finally started to get healthy at the end of the year, and he was very good when he was on the field.

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:20 am

Bakh is, if healthy, a great player. The only question is how long will he remain so. We are no longer a great team. We also have players that have proved effective at his position and we are cap starved and future loaded.

Bakh might help another team win it all in the next couple of years, but he won’t help us do it because we aren’t good enough and have no means to strengthen in FA. Since we aren’t going to contend, now is the time to liquidate what value we can from Bakh, Rodgers and the like. Only by doing that can we start to reassemble cap flexibility and bring on the next generation who might be able to carry us to a Super Bowl.

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RCPackerFan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:36 am

So how I read this, your opinion is we should throw in the towel and completely rebuild the whole thing?

I disagree with the idea that we aren't good enough. Our offense for the majority of the year didn't play well enough. There are reasons for that. Rodgers was playing with a broken thumb for half the year. The OL was a mess, the WR's were a mess. But now going into next year Watson and Doubs will have the rookie years under their belts. They will most likely take steps forward. Our OL the way it is right now should only improve next year. Myers missed half of his rookie year. This year was still learning for him and should be better next year. Runyan switched from LG to RG. He will have a full offseason to master RG. They have options at RT. The OL will be much improved.

The defense needs some work. They have to bring in more pass rushers. Gary will be back but maybe not right away. Enagbare will be a year improved, but they have to find help! Safety will likely be changed this offseason. At CB Stokes will be back. Walker could be poised for a monster year.

This team is not as far off as many people think it is.

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croatpackfan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:14 am

All your presumptions for next season are just that. You can not run successful bussiness on presumption everything will be OK. Because it want. Especially in business that are depend on "luck" that your personnel will stay healthy. Because they will not.

You have nothing from star LT if you do not have very good LG, C and right side of the OL, for example. Because, if your LT will do his job, it is enough one on OL is not good (remember Newman at RT or at RG!?).

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RCPackerFan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:28 am

That is all we have is presumptions at this point. No one knows how next year will turn out. At this point no one knows who will be on the roster. All we can do is look at what the young players did this year, and through coaching and training in the offseason, they will be looking to improve. That is the draft and development strategy. And for the most part GB has done really well using this model over the years.

When I am talking about the young players taking a step next year, I am going with the odds. Most say that a players biggest jump is from year 1 to year 2. The biggest thing the team needs to do though is to not make that assumption that the players will take that step. They need to be prepared that they don't. For example they can't rely on Watson/Doubs being our 1 & 2 WR's. We want them to be, but we can't rely on that. They need to be proactive, and bring more talent into the position.

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dobber's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:26 am

"So how I read this, your opinion is we should throw in the towel and completely rebuild the whole thing?....This team is not as far off as many people think it is."

Isn't that the crux of the article? That under a small number of big contracts, the players have been turning over already and that there's quality coming along under those players?

I tend to agree that the "a year too early rather than a year late" axiom usually holds. In this case, some might argue the Packers could be a little early in moving Bakhtiari, but they appear to have some encouraging players (Nijman and Tom are capable LTs, and a healthy Jenkins is likely also helpful)--so this might be right on time. It's looking like they missed the boat on 12.

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RCPackerFan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:29 am

basically...

Everyone has a different definition of rebuild. Like Rodgers said on Pat McAffee, only a few teams actually will come out and admit they are rebuilding. But most teams are constantly rebuilding or retooling things.

I agree on getting rid of a player too early then too late. However, you have to be ready to let go of said player. And by that they need to have people in position to fill the shoes of that player. They were not ready to replace Adams. So getting rid of him a year to early did not work.
While I think Yosh and Tom can play LT (I think Tom could be very good at LT), are they better then Bakthiari? On the field no they aren't. The way I look at it, until Bakhtiari starts to slow down, you don't get rid of him. I want to build the best OL, and Bakhtiari is the best LT they have. Him next to Jenkins. And Tom maybe is the RT?

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:50 am

This team is a lot further off. The young may indeed rise, but it will take time and the old will decline. It’s like a seesaw. Both ends won’t peak at the same time. That’s why you get off and start working on trying to get talent that can come good together. That isn’t happening with this roster.

Let’s put it this way, if the team plus a player = not contending then the team can do so cheaper and might have a replacement when it will make a difference and might get there sooner with the additional cap and perhaps picks. The time is now to get something we won’t get if we hang on to him.

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PeteK's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:31 am

I don't think any team will trade for Bak bc of injury history and lg contract. Also, the time to release him will be next year as we only save 5 mill this year, and he still has value for a young line and QB (Love hopefully).

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jannes bjornson's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:07 pm

If a top OT is there rd one-two, they have to snag him and let him go to the RT and slide over to LT when Bhak is moved. Tom needs help on either side. He may be better inside.

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stockholder's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:22 am

Houston - We have a problem! After Purdy won.
The Love pick was the wrong pick. !!!
Love is the word connected w/Rebuild.
And Rodgers stated he "wouldn’t “ be part of it.
Rodgers made other points on the McAfee show.
So let’s read between the lines.-( Some more. )
--He says he’s
Not a Robotic, repeating, one track,
single minded, zero balanced, “athlete.”
But let's substitute Athlete here.
Anyone dealing with management knows they can be.
People the problem is Gutey. The wasted picks.
The comparison between SF and GB stands out.
And Rodgers knows it! Rodgers has MOXIE!!
He Loves that in players. And he won’t give up.
So- when MLF didn’t want Love to be a Robot.
It brought up the spirit and determination.
Something Rodgers Found in himself.
And thats what Gutey didn’t have when he chose Love!!
Rodgers confirmed it is Reload, not Rebuild.
IF you want him. But Do they really want him??
Not if you go Rebuild. (LOVE)
Rodgers is Locked in with certain relationships.
He’s less judgmental with his friends.
The fastest way super-bowl is Rodgers.

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jurp's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:28 am

I only have to read the first "sentence" (using the term loosely) to know that this post is a waste of time.

Dude, we get it - you'll love Rodgers til the day you die, you hate Love with an irrational passion often reserved for those we're attracted to but wish we weren't, and you have no effing idea what you're talking about 99% of the time.

Just keep being you, stockholder - some of us need the LOLZ in this era of suckiness. And every village needs an idiot.

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packer132's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:26 am

Jurp: Spot on! You said it for me.

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BF's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:29 am

Agree wholeheartedly with packer132 and Jurp!

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Packerpasty's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:35 am

in your post you could switch the two name "Rodgers" and "Love" and it would also fit what many of you feel..;you hate Rodgers, love Love...same...Rodgers could win a Super Bowl and MVP and some of you would still be haters...and I also want him gone, its getting too crazy now for him to continue in GB...anyway, you haters are no better, no more informative, no more intelligent than people like stockholder...just got a crush on a different dude..

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dobber's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:31 am

No, no crush on 10--we really know next to nothing about him--and no hate of 12. I hate the cap situation and I hate what looks like a dysfunctional management that the situation has bred. I don't care who the next QB of the Packers is, so long as the roster, cap, and team gets healthy...Love just stands first in line at this moment. It might change in the next 6 months.

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stockholder's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:59 am

The blind lead the Blind.

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:07 am

And yet you persist

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stockholder's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:40 am

Yes, Because You want to go backwards.
And find fault with personal trying to win.
The difference between SF and GB
is as plain as the nose on your face.
I'll take the eagles to win the super-bowl.
Remember when I told you hurts
Would be better than Love.
Remember I wanted Sweat.
If you know the draft. You win!

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:58 am

I’m not going backwards in your mind because you are standing facing a past you can’t let go. That’s forwards to the rest of us.

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Bitternotsour's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:43 pm

replying to a troll is still engaging a troll. best to let stupid play itself out without reply. downvote and move on?

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PeteK's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:43 am

Cap gets healthy with part of Rogers's contract gone and maybe a draft pick to help the roster. Even at his best we couldn't get to the SB, so it's time to reset not rebuild. Hey ,now that sounds much better. RESET! Wait a minute, that wording might make AR not leave. Horse feathers!

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Leatherhead's picture

January 23, 2023 at 12:13 pm

***"" I don't care who the next QB of the Packers is, so long as the roster, cap, and team gets healthy"""""

I don't think it really matters. I don't think there's anything we can do to get our cap healthy in 2023. We can play Rodgers or trade him and that doesn't affect our cap.

As far as improving the roster, I think we could improve the roster...especially on the offensive side.... with or without Rodgers or Love.

By my count, we could use 3 more WRs if Lazard and Cobb both leave. We could use another RB, because Dillon will be in his contract season and Jones is getting older. We could use a couple of new players at TE. And a better backup at QB. That's 7. And on the offensive line, unless we want Newman and Hanson in there after people get injured, we could use some fresh talent.

So those are all things we can do to improve the roster that don't involve 10 or 12. And they'll all be cheap for the next few years.

Trade down, load up the roster with rookies, take our medicine, cap-wise, this year and by 2024 we could be largely out of the hole.

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stockholder's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:03 pm

We don't have enough picks to do what they should.
Gutey will have to trade someone.
Because Bahk, Tonyan , Cobb and Lazard are good players.
(Rodgers even stated, he realized they may not come back!)
And that will hurt the product.
If they trade Love and Give him his shot.= Savings -20 mil
If the trade Jones. Savings is 20 mil.
Your in a rebuild. You have to dump salary.
A Fire sale will be the result. Or players wanting $$$.
MVS got out. Adams got out. It won't stop.

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jurp's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:11 pm

"We don't have enough picks to do what they should.
Gutey will have to trade someone."

That "someone" SHOULD BE RODGERS! With luck and a bidding war, we might actually get decent-round multiple picks. No one else on the team offers that opportunity.

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:56 am

No, just weary acceptance that Rodgers’ window with the Packers is closed. He may have a brief one elsewhere. Love may not have one at all, or it may be fleeting, but our next window to contend is with someone who didn’t start this year. “Hater” is a statement that simply indicates a lack of basis to refute a contention that is upsetting. Try to formulate one and I will happily consider its merits but, until then, it’s just cheap defeat for you.

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Leatherhead's picture

January 23, 2023 at 12:17 pm

That window closed a long time ago. Look at all the QBs not named Brady who won a Super Bowl after age 35. Look at all the QBs who won a Super Bowl, then didn't make it back for over a decade, then won another Super Bowl. That's an even shorter list.

Cubbygold posted an insightful article about a year ago that detailed no QB who takes up more than X% of the cap has won a Super Bowl, and Rodgers is way over that number.

It's over. It's not going to happen. We're not going to be able to put a strong enough team around him. Ever. We've tried.

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Guam's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:03 pm

One of the announcers noted yesterday that of the eight NFL teams playing over the weekend, every quarterback was under the age of 30. Hello Mark Murphy - anybody home???

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Return_To_Sanity's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:48 am

Except our hatred for Rodgers was well earned by years of pathetic playoff performances and progressively petulant behavior. Please tell us what Love has done to deserve the wrath of Packer fans?

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PackyCheese500's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:57 pm

My reason for not wanting to retain Rodgers is because I don’t think we could win a super bowl with him, not only because he didn’t play at an MVP level (which he’s getting paid for) and is on the decline with age, but also because our lack of cap space from all the restructures (and Rodgers huge contract) doesn’t allow us the ability to build a competitive roster with him. We need a salary cap reset, and Rodgers has said he doesn’t want to be part of it.

I have nothing personal against them, and if I thought he could take us all the way in 23, then I would be for going with him. However, as I’ve shown, that is not the case.

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jurp's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:12 pm

As I've noted on other threads, I have no hatred for Rodgers because I haven't met him. He needs to go because he's gotten less effective in big games each year since 2019. His contract is hamstringing the team, and we will never win a championship with him as our QB.

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Scott Stach's picture

January 23, 2023 at 12:18 pm

Every damn post I think of the same thing...

At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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Return_To_Sanity's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:29 pm

Underrated comment ^^^^

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jannes bjornson's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:16 pm

That's about right. Gutedkunst has too many whiffs on his belt. Failure to provide depth and then the reach for Free agents to fill voids and over-paying them. Always a draft behind since 2017. The Shanahan offense is not very impressive. Zak gave the game away. Kittle shows why your TE candidate needs to come from the first or second round. Get two at minimum, three would be best. The coup of 2018 set this slow drip in motion. Now the accountants are in meltdown mode.

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PackyCheese500's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:00 pm

I agree; we need a premium TE! Let’s take advantage of one of the best TE draft classes in a long time and get Michael Mayer, Dalton Kincaid, or possibly Tucker Kraft or Darnell Washington (or perhaps Luke Musgrave). We also need another TE later in the draft., ideally one whose main skill set contrasts that of the earlier TE.

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jannes bjornson's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:22 pm

I would grab Musgrave or Schoonmaker ahead of Washington. The rest are round one-two guys. He cannot sit on his hands and watch the talent go by his "board" rds 2-4 like he did in 2022.

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Return_To_Sanity's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:33 pm

Why? So Rodgers can not throw to him and then throw him under the bus repeatedly to the media?

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jannes bjornson's picture

January 24, 2023 at 09:57 am

Tell LaFleur, not me. He's the clown with the master plan on fourth downs...

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Leatherhead's picture

January 24, 2023 at 12:08 pm

As a reference point:

We drafted Bubba Franks in 2000, and that's the last time we've drafted a TE in the first round. Of course, we don't draft RBs or WRs in the first round either, because the organization has determined they can still get very good offensive skill position players after the first round.

In some simulations, I trade down a little from #15 and I'm able to end up with 6 or 7 picks in the Top 113. I could easily get 6 guys in the Top 113 who would improve our offense.....a TE, WR, RB, OL.... I'm talking about guys like Washington, and Tillman and Musgrave and some RBs and OL.

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Savage57's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:30 am

Why are the Packers in the position they're in? For about four years now, they fell in love with hearing their own players become, "The highest paid at their position" when they inked them to second and third deals.

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Tekraut17's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:49 pm

Well in one year we could be a hell of a lot worse. Both QB's on the roster could be gone and we could be searching for one. What if we sign/keep both this year, AR plays the whole year and Love says enough is enough and bolts after the season. We have no QB and no one under contract to trade....

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Guam's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:33 am

I would define a rebuild as divesting yourself of any high dollar players who will likely be in decline by the time the rebuilt team is ready to compete for a championship as well as any players already in decline. You could use an arbitrary cutoff age such as anyone over 30 as a benchmark but some positions allow for longer playing careers than others (QB, kicker as examples) so a hard and fast application of an age rule might not be appropriate.

For the Packer purposes, I think Rodgers, Bahk and Preston would certainly qualify. Crosby, Big Dog, Cobb and others aren't high dollar players, but are close enough to the end of their careers that they would also qualify as currently in decline. All should go in a true rebuild.

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:52 am

You hit the key point when identifying the fact that it’s not the high dollars but “the likely to be in decline” consideration that is the pivotal one.

If we aren’t winning now, and we really aren’t, then we need to divest players who are likely in decline by 2025. That starts to free cap and forces us to develop or find replacements who are by likely to help when we have a chance at a credible roster and contending.

There’s no point in having an all star QB or LT when you aren’t contending for two years and have potentially capable replacements. It’s nice, he’s great, but he won’t win us anything alone and holds back development.

Keeping guys like Cobb is just taking snaps from others and either holding back development of others or hiding a need to find new young talent. It’s just a commitment to being not good enough at a key position, no matter how much I like Cobb the person. Comfortable is a bad motive when leading anything. It should always invite deep self questioning.

The sad truth is it is past time to break up this era. Move in to younger and cheaper and start developing and seeking the next generation. There’s no guarantee of success but that’s better than a guarantee of decline. Players not on an upward curve are what one should seek to move on from, and get value in return for if possible and future cap flexibility for if not.

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Razer's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:46 am

...The sad truth is it is past time to break up this era. Move in to younger and cheaper and start developing and seeking the next generation. There’s no guarantee of success but that’s better than a guarantee of decline...

This is so clear and true. Hope that this type of frank, forward-thinking discussion is happening in the halls of Lambeau. Thanks

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Razer's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:33 am

Rebuild yes but redesign as part of the exercise. Rebuilding a team using the same formula will yield similar results or at best the same ceiling. The Packers have never valued strong trench play and generally get run over when playing the meaningful games. I like the Philly approach. Build the fronts and the skill sits on a solid foundation.

I think people need to consider that our "high priced" talents like Bak, Clark, Jones, etc are currently overpriced because we keep restructuring the contracts and pushing money forward. If they had averaged out the salaries, these guys would have been talented and reasonable. Don't look at Aaron Jones at $20+ million when you used him for years at $10 million. Incurring the dead money on these contracts amounts to paying them to play for someone else.

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T7Steve's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:31 am

That said it all Razer, " I like the Philly approach. Build the fronts and the skill sits on a solid foundation." I believe that includes TEs and edge too. Only way to successfully build a contender.

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Razer's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:56 am

I feel like a broken record BUT I can't get away from the Packers as a "finesse" team. Even our drafting tackles to play guard/center speaks to this. Where are the maulers and road graders?

But if you want to win enough regular season games to keep people coming to your amusement park then the status quo seems to work. At least the Vikings are on the same path. The Lions are a different story.

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greengold's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:01 am

We've all been made to be broken records at this point, my friend. Sadly.

I'm all for getting rid of our top cap hits, trading away talents or cutting them, taking those hits in the form of a losing season or two, while stocking picks, and throwing all in on the rebuild.

Color me shocked if it starts with the carnival barker Murphy (Alfred E. Newman's brother from a different mother) in charge of this hot mess.

What I see happening is the Packers continuing to make the exact same mistakes, expecting a different outcome, resulting in an even worse record than 2022, and only then the heads -might- begin to roll.

We're two years away from any real action being taken, IMO. Best to go to night school and learn a different language, start a book club or a far more solid, dedicated drinking habit...

Rock ON, Razer!

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LambeauPlain's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:03 am

How do you rebuild a badly mismanaged team with the same dysfunctional structure in place?

Howdy Doody Murphy is the chairman of the football committee and meddles in every major decision. He made himself the Acting GM back in 2017 after McCarthy whined Ted was not getting him players he wanted. Ted was also in severe mental decline.

So Murphy's "short term" solution was to have Ted, McCarthy and Ball all report to him. But he kept it in place after he hired Gutey with greatly diminished responsibilities.

Why? Did Murphy not have confidence Gutey could be a real GM? Or did Murphy get hooked on being Acting GM? Maybe he thinks his goofy structure is effective as he "manages" the Packers into a mortgaged, salary cap hell?

Maybe the answer to all three is yes. Regardless, Murphy is not an effective, self appointed GM. To expect him to rebuild the team is a fools errand.

My guess is continued "can kicking" until "Acting GM" Murphy is forced to retire in two years. More bloat in the cap and a soft team with aging, high priced players with no identity and weak coaching leadership.

The Packers Board of Directors is completely complicit in the flailing bureaucracy at 1265 Lombardi.

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:26 am

I think, after 2 decades of being the man in Lambeau, Murphy thought he knew better and, being a former player and athletic director, decided he really was the most qualified GM. Sadly neither role is the same and that fallacy has been proven out by subsequent events. In my view, he actually should have been held to account for his prior oversight, not rewarded, but we compounded the issue and he has failed in every key decision as de facto GM. In fact he just looks like a man who long ago cane to believe his own hype and surround himself with those who will tell him he’s correct to a point where they no longer see the world as the rest of it sees them. Reality is different in Murphy’s domain. Hubris.

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T7Steve's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:36 am

Yes. He sees his self as the owner. Is he a Kraft or a Ford?

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jurp's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:19 pm

If he's a Ford, then he's an Edsel (look it up, youngsters :) )

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Handsback's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:32 am

The Packers for sure have a disfunctional management team. The last 2 contracts to Rodgers were awful in either their timing or the restrictions they carried.
TT for his shortcomings in player evaluation, managed the team to a certain level of performance and for the most part kept them at that level.
Why Murphy restructured the organization and felt the need to meddle is beyond my comprehension. My guess is that after TT, MM felt he could manage a program that came close to winning the SB to winning several in a row and he would be the architect.
Ladies and gentlemen this is a great example of what is happening in many industries today, with similar results. I hope the Packer's BOD, realize how foolish the current structure is and make some changes. If not, no matter the talent on this team...they will never win the SB unless Lady luck makes Green Bay her permanent residence.
Just MHO.

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Dragon5's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:38 am

"What Would A Rebuild Look Like?"

Hmmm depends on who you ask. Let's start at the top and look into the hypothetical mind of Mark Murphy, shall we?

1) We'll resurface the parking lots so we can charge more for each spot for the next four years until I retire. Designated tailgating areas will be charged a premium, since we're providing our fans the means to not only dispose of their charcoal waste on site, but a trea$ured NFL experience on this $acred $oil. In the future, our intention is to only allow compact cars and eliminate tailgating, so that we can allocate smaller parking spaces, and encourage fans to consume inside the stadium to further drive revenue. As a consolation, our HoF will begin allowing a limited number of premium tailgating parking spots to the first twelve customers that finish their HoF tour, perpetuating HoF ticket sales.

2) Our declining food & beverage margins must be addressed. We're going to upgrade the quality of our buns for all burgers, dogs, and bratwursts, because, well, our fans deserve the best. We'll only charge a $1 more, but net an additional 75c on every transaction, increasing overall food margins 10%. To put this into perspective, that's 10% more than my GM has hit on 3rd round draft picks. For beverages, we're going to join the shrinkflation movement by decreasing the volume of each product by 1.5oz, but encourage consumption by "giving away" a limited series Cheesehead case beverage pack to the lucky winner of every 11,000th purchase. Our actuaries anticipate beverage margins increasing a solid 25%--the same chance we have at winning the NFC North this year!

3) Tickets...ahh yes. The easy segment of our business model revamp...we'll stay with the tried & true "middle of the PACK" increase so as not to stand out and further frustrate our fanbase. Hey, stagflation is for all of us to enjoy...it's a community thing.

4) Last but not least, we need to address the hill, and not just any hill, Ariens Hill! That is not just Wisconsin's most glorious congregation of childhood thrills and joy...it is a disaster! We are wasting precious Titletown resources by failing to extract revenue from all the kids that wait in line, sometimes an hour to sled down that hill! We need, (just like the supermarkets) concessions from the most distant wait spot to front of the line. Our job is to provide an experience and entertainment and dammit, candy and hot chocolate our kids will have!

Yes CurdNation, that i$ our acting President in a nut$hell. Everything matter$ but the product on the field.

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Bitternotsour's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:34 pm

Friend, that is some quality content. Highest regards.

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mrtundra's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:46 am

What can be done with those high cap hits regarding restructuring contracts? I know we are pretty much skewered with the Rodgers contract, cap wise, but what about Jones, Alexander, and Clark? I think if Rodgers gets traded, or retires, Bakh leaves with him. Same with Cobb, if he hasn't already quit. Gute may have already made his decision, on Bakh and Cobb, anyway. IMO,I think Alexander earned his contract just in the vikings game, alone. I also feel that if the GBP are to be successful, down the road, they have to make changes in both management and in the coaching staff. I'd keep Gute and Ball, but Murphy can go. Gute would have to step in and oversee Barry's exit, because MLF wants Barry to stay. We are in third place, in the NFC North, at the end of this past season. That tastes terrible. Something's gotta change!

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Since'61's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:55 am

You could rebuild this team with Joe Montana, Gale Sayers, Jim Brown and Lombardi's OL and it won't change the results much with this coaching staff.

Look how long they stuck with Amari Rodgers. Could we have won one more game with Kisean Nixon providing the offense with better field position?
Could have won another game or two if we played the defense utilized against the Vikings for the entire season? Yes it would need to be tweaked week to week depending on the opponent But week 17 was a too little too late.
Would it have helped the offense early in the season if we played Jenkins at LG from week one instead of playing musical OLs for the first 5-6 games?
Most importantly of all would the Packers have had a better chance to beat the Jets, the Lions (1st game) and the Commanders if they had started Love and sat Rodgers and allowed him to heal?
And these are some of the obvious decisions this coaching staff got wrong. Who knows how many other bonehead decisions were made throughout the course of the season?

The failure to sit Rodgers when his play was obviously being impacted by his injury tells me what the Packers FO and coaching staff are about. They play not to lose rather than play to win. They are more afraid of being criticized for sitting Rodgers when he is injured than starting Love and learning whether or not Love is their guy. Even if they lost all the games with Love as the starter they would at least have a better idea about whether he can be the next guy or not. Rodgers injury was a perfect opportunity for them to give Love a shot and become better informed about him. Not to mention maybe a better chance to win another 2-3 games and reach the playoffs this season.

This is not about Rodgers holding anyone hostage. This is about poor management (Murphy and Gute) from the FO and compounded by stupid coaching decisions prior to and during the games. I would not be surprised if Matt LaChooch is not afraid of being exposed by starting Love because maybe we would see that his offensive genius is not so great with a young QB. Maybe we would see that he is not a QB guru or not the offensive genius he is alleged to be.

So tweak, rebuild, tear it all down and start over, call it whatever you want but don't expect a significant change in results with the current cast of chooches pretending to be an NFL coaching staff. Call it what you will but start with the coaching staff.

BTW, what was the most significant difference between 2022 and MLCs 13-3 seasons? The loss of Davante Adams and the decline in Rodgers play due to his injuries (thumb, ribs, knee). Add this to the points I made earlier in the post and there's the 2022 results. The offensive genius was out prepared and out coached just about every week. He could not overcome the loss of Adams and the injuries to Rodgers. Then he compounded those very real problems by failing to correct his OL, his defense, his return specialist and by starting Love when the situation called for it. If he hasn't learned in 4 seasons as an NFL HC I don't see Matt LaChooch getting any better going forward.

Unfortunately, the Packers organization sticks with players, coaches, and the FO far beyond their respective expiration dates. Thanks, Since '61

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Packerpasty's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:52 am

And, sadly, MLF and his crew apparently aren't going anywhere....at least not for another year or two of not making the playoffs...MLF is the least inspiring coach that I have seen in a long time, Packers or anywhere else.

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HDbikerguy's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:54 am

AWESOME response or contribution.... I too don't understand why MLF thinks that keeping everything the same going forward will produce better results..... just watch how other teams operate..... like the ones playing next weekend....3rd string rookie QB...no problem...oh, that team ALSO has a new D coordinator.....

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Since'61's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:52 pm

That team also has the #1 ranked defense in points allowed per game with their new DC. But attest we have Joe Perry. Thanks, Since '61

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Leatherhead's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:02 pm

Against common opponents, SF's defense isn't on another planet from Green Bay.

Chicago got 19 against both of us. Washington got 20 against SF, 23 against GB. The Rams were comparable. Tampa was comparable.

SF gave up 30 or more 3 times; we gave up 30 or more 1 time. They were very good at holding weak offenses under 17. They're the best defense in the league, but I want you to understand that they aren't light years better than us.

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Since'61's picture

January 24, 2023 at 06:58 pm

LH, we come at this issue from different perspectives. You use the stats to support the position that we're not that far away or only one or two players or tweaks away. Unfortunately that is exactly the perspective that enables management (in this case the FO and coaching) to believe that the team is OK and we'll cover our weaknesses with our draft picks and a few experienced but inexpensive FAs. That type of thinking has impacted the Packers thinking since the 2010 SB victory. It is the type of thinking that paralyzes management teams in every industry and every type of business. I've seen it repeatedly during my consulting career. It is paralysis by analysis.

I come at the situation from a management perspective. Specifically that management either needs to change how they think about their results or they need to be replaced with more effective thinking about the results. A corporation cannot sell their way out of a product that is losing money or a distribution process with high fixed expenses built into the process. Management takes the position of let's keep doing that we'er doing but let's just do more of it. It dosen't and it has not and is not working for the Packers.

That is how I see the FO and the coaching staff handling the Packers since at least about 2015. Yes, they can look at the 2022 results and say let's keep the band together and add a few guys in the draft, sign a few Vet FAs and get Gary and Stokes healthy and we'll be fine for 2023. But the progressive thinking that they should be embarking upon is what changes do we need to make now to get us to be at least as good as our best competitors and be able to defeat them in the playoffs. It is the difference between taking a long. hard, honest look at the organization versus thinking we're not so bad let's maintain the status quo.

The latter approach doesn't work in business and it hasn't work in sports in a long, long time either.

LH you may be correct that the Packers defense is not light years behind the 49ers. If that is the case the difference is in the coaching staffs. The Packers current coaching staff are not good enough to close the gap and FO appears to be fine with that if they are going to retain MLF and allow him to retain Barry. That why I view the Packers current and actually on going problem as a management problem. The team has no sense of urgency to address the teams issues and therefore it should be n surprise that the team plays with no sense of urgency on the field. Thanks, Since '61

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Packerpasty's picture

January 23, 2023 at 06:02 pm

well his solo LP wasn't all that bad..

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coolhand's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:08 am

And how long did he stick with Newman at RG when it was obvious he couldn't handle the position? How long did they stick with Lowry when it was obvious he was always getting pushed backwards? And you mentioned Rodgers as return man. There were other examples as well. It seems the coaches and the player evaluations are not very good. What exactly are these guys getting paid for?

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croatpackfan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 12:42 pm

And how long did he stick with ACR at QB when it was obvious he is in decline? And how long did he stick with wing hands instead to follow the game?

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stockholder's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:07 pm

Effort can overcome anything.

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Coldworld's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:41 pm

No, effort can be in vain. Indeed, in the wrong direction, it can be positively harmful.

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HarryHodag's picture

January 23, 2023 at 08:57 am

There's not much new to talk about so now we're getting into semantics to fill time and space.

The 2023 version of the Packers are likely to bear some resemblance to this past season but like all things football, things change every year. It all depends on the outcome of Aaron Rodgers. Not much else to talk about until His Highness(in more ways than one) decides what he wants to do.

As I watched the KC game this weekend I thought about what could have been. In 1998 it was clear Mike Holmgren was leaving to go to Seattle. At the time the Packers had an assistant head coach/quarterbacks coach by the name of Andy Reid. Ron Wolf wanted to find a 'tougher' coach when Holmgren left. The Philadelphia job opened up and Reid went there. Wolf hired Ray Rhodes and fired him after one season.

I wonder where the Packers would be today if Wolf had promoted Reid to head coach?

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LambeauPlain's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:18 am

The Wolfman once said one of his greatest mistakes was letting Andy Reid get away. He considered hiring him after Holmgren left but hesitated because Andy was still very young and relatively inexperienced.

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jannes bjornson's picture

January 23, 2023 at 01:56 pm

They gave him a gold jacket for that move...

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LeotisHarris's picture

January 23, 2023 at 04:57 pm

KC is fun to watch, that's for sure Harry, and Andy Reid is a great guy and future HOF coach. We're both old enough to remember all the times when baffling late-game clock management handed the Eagles and Chiefs an L because Andy stood like a man staring into the sun. He has a 20-16 postseason record. He's won one Super Bowl since leaving Green Bay for the HC job in Philly.

So, if Wolf had handed the reins to Andy rather than Ray, and Andy had guided the Pack to a single Super Bowl victory and a 20-16 post season record since 1999, would Packers' fans be patting him on the back or pointing him toward the door?

I love the guy as a man and a coach. When his name is mentioned, this is the image of Andy Reid that comes to my mind:

https://youtu.be/B4gNFL2upZE

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Packerpasty's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:58 pm

Andy is great because of his QB and the talent on the team...who can elevate a team with mediocre talent? Probably no one except maybe grumpy Bill in NE and even he is having a tough go of that now..

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Ferrari-Driver's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:31 am

I'm getting concerned about our head coach who is striking more like an offensive coordinator than a head coach. This season I watched a couple of teams closer than I usually do and they were the New York Giants and the Detroit Lions. Both of those head coaches seem to just inspire their players, perhaps just a little like Lombardi used to do with our great Packers teams of the 1960's. It seem like the players are going out there with their hair on fire giving everything they have to compete and win. I do think Aaron Rodgers and his attitude is making LaFleur's job harder and Mark Murphy has tied the hands of his general manager to function as most all general managers do. Thus, any talk about a rebuild should address both players and management.

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Leatherhead's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:38 am

I would define rebuild as putting players on on the field that you plan to have for the next couple of years.

That would exclude Rodgers, Jones, Bakhtiari, Lewis, Tonyan, Cobb on offense. Six of the 21 guys we dress out. I don't see any of these guys as the future of the Packers. We might get another good year, or two, out of one of two of them. We already have the replacement in place for some of them.

FWIW, I'd be tempted to run it back next year. Without Rodgers . Push Jones' deal down the road another year and line up Jones and Dillon. Play Watson and Doubs and Toure, say good bye to Lazard and Cobb. Add some skill position guys, beef up the Oline . I'm unconvinced that Rodgers is worth an extra 2-3-4 wins a season.

In simulations, you could trade down a little from #15 and end up with 6 picks in the Top 113. You could add an RB, TE, WR, and some OL to the 21 guys we dress out. Last year, we were a very average offense with a very average QB. I'd replace Rodgers with Love and use the draft to bolster the offense. I don't think we'd be any worse than 8-9.

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PeteK's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:20 am

I think that's exactly what they'll do with Jones. He's too valuable on the field, clubhouse, and to a QB (especially a young one) and does not have the wear and tear because of Dillion. Move some of the money to next year and then we can release him in 2025.
I don't like losing Lazard, but estimations have him at 11 mill per for 3 years. I was always intrigued with the idea of him being our TE, and then drafting a pure blocking TE ( which is usually easier in later rounds).

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Lphill's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:52 am

its all about coaching, Joe Barry should have been fired after the Eagles game, I am pretty sure he was a Lions coach during their 0 and 16 season, I think with the right coaches on both sides of the ball the Packers are a valid SB contender , if you noticed in the playoff games especially this past weekend, tight ends had big games , we don't have a play making tight end so that should be a priority , also I'm wondering if letting Amos go and moving Douglas to safety is an option? I'm not sure who the QB should be moving forward but when Rodgers's thumb was first injured the fact Love didn't get a start is puzzling I don't think that decision was made by Rodgers.

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stockholder's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:26 am

What made those TEs so good? WRs!
Look at the Wrs on the teams that won.

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jannes bjornson's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:12 pm

The TEs are Talented, plain and simple. You have to have the #1-2 WRs And the TEs to run the NEW Offenses. TWO TEs with skills. Guys like Chase are few and far between, but the guy not chosen, Higgins had a big game setting the tone for Burrow. The Bengal Tigers went for Hurst as a FA and Gutey sat on his hands with a wounded Tonyan, an over-the-hill Lewis and a guy they never go to Deguara. The Ravens run Andrews ( a three pick, Gutey whiffs on Josh Jackson and Burks); Drafted Isaiah Likely (receiving TE) and Charlie Kolar (Inline), guys we mocked in 2022 draft build up, from the deep pool of TE talent. Gutedkunst drafted nada. Josh Oliver fills the depth chart. John Harbaugh ground teams down with this crew with a guy like Huntley starting at QB. The TEs are a key ingredient, especially in WCO based offenses.

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T7Steve's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:40 am

When the coach comes out of a game saying, "I don't know what went wrong, I'll have to watch film." Which means, "I can't make decisions or adjustment in real time and have to get someone else's opinion." you don't have to look any further. That just breeds indecision throughout the organization and team dysfunction.

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Leatherhead's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:08 am

Well, Steve, sometimes after a game you don't know what the hell went wrong, and you do have to watch film. The sideline view sucks.

For the record, the Packers defense did hold 16 of 17 opponents to 28 or less, and half our opponents to 20 or less. The Packers have the best defense in the Division (yes, it's a tall midget).

IMO, we're much too harsh in our criticisms Barry. As I've previously noted here, we finished 30 points out of the #6 ranking in scoring defense. That's a couple of garbage TDs against the Vikes and a few gash plays where we had a bad play. That's the difference between our average ranking and the #6 spot.

I think there's a benefit to continuity. Next year, most everybody on the defense knows the system by the time the first minicamp arrives. That's a good thing. Savage, Alexander, Douglas, Stokes, Carpenter, Nixon, Ford, Gary, Smith, Enagbare, Campbell, Walker, Clark, Slaton, Wyatt....that's a veteran group that's experienced in the system. I think that's going to pay benefits.

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T7Steve's picture

January 23, 2023 at 12:21 pm

LH, I was talking about ML and how it trickles down. He should be able to see the D even better from the side-lines because he isn't calling plays at that time. He could be focused on what he's going to call the next time the O is on the field, which tells me he shouldn't be calling plays.

Other coaches seem to see the field well enough to see what's going wrong or have someone in the box upstairs to point it out.

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Leatherhead's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:05 pm

I'm just saying, the perspective you have on the sideline sucks. You do have guys in box with a better view, but you've got 30 million things in your head. You don't see everything, you don't see even half of everything.

I'm really hesitant to be critical of decision making under fire. Everything you're doing, from rubbing your nose to scratching or adjusting is visible to 70,000 people, not counting TV. You've got people in your headset. You've got the game itself to manage. It's a lot. In High School, you're working with teenagers but you're not exactly working with rocket scientist 21-25 year olds in the pros, either. So stuff happens, and it's not because the coach is undisciplined or unable or indecisive. It's because a lot of stuff is going on. It's football.

Which is why, in the end, I think you have to look at the scoreboard. Under LaFleur, we're 47-19. Our worst season was 8-9. I don't think that's a bad 4 year record.

This is why it's so critical, IMO, to part company with Rodgers. Because if Love comes out and plays like a top QB who's been practicing and preparing for 3.5 years, and who studied under a HOFer like Rodgers, then we're going to roll on offense and Gutekunst and LaFleur will be vindicated. If Love lays an egg, heads will roll and everybody here can be happy because they'll feel vindicated in their opinions all along. It's perfect.

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jannes bjornson's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:39 pm

If Barry doesn't let his players, play; they will know his schemes are sedentary and fossilized. Something they seemed to know throughout the season. Stokes should be replaced. He's a #3 at best. Savage is already overpaid, playing nickel, since he was drafted to be the playmaking FS. We do not know if Gutedkunst signs Nixon or Ford to extensions? P.Smith is the only pass rusher until Gary shows up in November. Enagbare holds edge, but is green in rush technique. The goal is to hold the opponent to 20 or less and secure turnovers.

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jurp's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:28 pm

When LaFuckup said that he should've been fired and replaced with Bisaccia that same night.

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croatpackfan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:59 am

"I'm not sure who the QB should be moving forward but when Rodgers's thumb was first injured the fact Love didn't get a start is puzzling I don't think that decision was made by Rodgers."

You forget that ACR said by himself publicly that he will playing all the way till they have the smallest chance to reach post season. And that statement came when Packers was 5-8. After that it is clear that pathetic subservant MLF, even if he tried to suggest something like that was shut down by angry ACR. Not in public, of course, because someone might ask if that injury is "injury" or it is something else.

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fangirl's picture

January 23, 2023 at 10:07 am

I am actually speechless for once-lol.
It looks like most of the posters understand that one cannot 'rebuild' a team when the Front Office/coaches are its weakest link.

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croatpackfan's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:00 am

When you are taking team in consideration, not ACR, your pist has more sense.

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beautiful_mystery's picture

January 23, 2023 at 11:14 am

I got it! Super easyyyyyy....

In the event the Packers are going to trade #12 and #12 is a willing participant, make it a package deal. At no extra cost (draft-wise), the deal has to include Coach LaF and Coach Barry.

We keep MM, unless we can get two 1's for him too.

We got this folks! Thanks much for your undivided attention.

*it just might be my failing eyesight, but that mad lad Gutster is looking more and more like Vince.

*I think that last play by the Cowboys must of made ol' Jerry Jones proud! How bout' them Cowboys?! That play had as much of a chance as me on prom night. Okay, better head out before a couple of you big ol' boy posters take me behind the shed and give me an old fashioned attitude adjustment. :)

One more thing, if you all came at me like you do Stock...I would be crying for weeks on end! I am sensitive, so please keep your words kind and your thoughts pure. I don't think I ever received a downvote, so keep them upvotes coming...but I have to earn them...no freebies. Thanks for your understanding...

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beautiful_mystery's picture

January 23, 2023 at 12:38 pm

Just a heads up: someone accidentally hit the downvote button. I think you can go back and hit the upvote, which I am sure you intended to. No worries, I make mistakes too. Rather infrequently, but they do happen.....

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jurp's picture

January 23, 2023 at 05:34 pm

If we keep Murphy like you suggest, then the whole shitshow starts over. It'd be like the TV show Dark...

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beautiful_mystery's picture

January 23, 2023 at 12:35 pm

I like when Coach LaF gets the crowd going with the wing flaps. I finally figured it out, he hammers a couple Red Bulls at halftime...they give him wiings. 👍💪👌

Whether it's a rebuild or twirk, the Pack needs an identity, a homefield attitude when teams come in when the Gales of November come early, and take a loss personally! Get nasty, get mean...bite their shins to win.

GPG!

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jannes bjornson's picture

January 23, 2023 at 02:50 pm

They lost Home Field advantage with sherman in command, the stadium reconfiguration and the no-fun rules for the ticket holders.

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Packers0808's picture

January 23, 2023 at 06:52 pm

Only one THING AJones has to stay. anyone saying get rid of him wants to see no team in GB!

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stockholder's picture

January 23, 2023 at 09:32 pm

Gutey will take care of that.

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EnemyTerritory's picture

January 23, 2023 at 07:01 pm

What kind of team do the packers want to be? Right now there is no identity. A fitness team with an aging QB who’s skill set and body are in decline and can’t still do the finesse consistently. Team couldn’t decide to or stay committed to either the pass or run consistently. There are no road graters on either side of the ball. I recall the talk about MLF bringing in a RB/TE focused offense with misdirection and motion. Only misdirection were players that seemed lost. The TE position is a dumpster fire. Love big dog but he’s an extra lineman. Watching the SF game I was struck by position less players like Debo and McCaffrey who lined up as a bit of everything and a Swiss Army knife fullback. All promised here but never delivered.

My rebuild : bissacia as DC or HC. Barry and MLF hitting the streets. Draft a TE or try to trade for one. Jones to Atlanta for Pitts? Just a thought. Hell the Vikings scored Hockenson mid season. Keep Bahk and Alexander. Best regards for the service of Cobb, Smith, BigDog and maybe Crosby - can’t wait to see ya on alumni day games. QB12 can be all in or all out. His choice but love is given the fifth year option and named the starter in 2024. Resign Nixon. Draft WR, nasty mean linemen.

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